Not signed in (Sign In)
A podcast and forum for those who design, develop and run websites.
Boagworld is not just a web design podcast, it is also a thriving online community. Whether you build, design or run websites there are always people here to help. Whatever your question there is sure to be somebody with the answer.
- subscribe via itunes
- subscribe via rss
- or get blog posts by email
Welcome, Guest
Want to take part in these discussions? Sign in if you have an account, or apply for one below
Vanilla 1.1.10 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.
-
I'd love to hear from non-agency designers, like myself, about pricing out the web design jobs you do in your spare time. I have a day job, so when I do freelance sites I generally work for artists, musicians, non-profits and others who don't have a big budget, and often have rediculous 'project creep' because they don't truly understand what they can do with a site until they get half way into the project.
When I give clients an hourly rate, I most often end up having to give a large 'friendly discount' at the end of the process because they can't afford the bill, but when I give a flat rate, I often end up working way more than I ought to for the money I'm getting. Should I lower my hourly rate so that the clients can afford it? It's a tricky situation and I'd love to hear how others decide what to charge. -
The way I see it, every cloud has a silver lining. If you produce a website for friends or non-profits, you should do it with the intention of improving your portfolio. You should explain that as it's highly discounted, you want to have final say on the design and functionality.
I build lots of great looking mock-ups, but they almost always end of a shadow of their former self after client 'input'! -
- CommentAuthorCurtisMcHale
- CommentTimeMay 31st 2007
I generally charge an 'hourly' rate and use the site to increase my portfolio. If it starts to get silly with creep then I start to enforce the price as stated. I never really charge that but one site can't take up all my time and then get a massive discount. Often when I start with a non-profit I find that if I spend the first 10+ hours working with them to nail down content I can accomplish the rest without as much work. -
- CommentAuthorbill posters
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2007
If you produce a website for friends or non-profits, you should do it with the intention of improving your portfolio. You should explain that as it's highly discounted, you want to have final say on the design and functionality.
Yes and no. A good, well-rounded portfolio should also demonstrate your ability to meet the clients' brief.
Simply imposing yourself as the über-art-director on cheap jobs and freebies might be fine for demonstrating your design and coding, but you can just as easily demonstrate that through self-initiated projects.
The real opportunity in taking on cheap and freebie jobs for the 'folio comes in having 'real' projects to work one's magic on. Turning it into a self-directed project takes anything genuinely useful (to other potential employers/clients) out of the project.
NPO (Non-profit organisations) shouldn't have the designer impose themselves in that way. They will have marketing and a budget, which may be limited, but should certainly secure them the final say in the design/etc… of their site.
(i.e. don't confuse NPOs with freebies. They may pump profit back into the organisation, but not before deducting running costs, including the costs of marketing and design materials.)When I give clients an hourly rate, I most often end up having to give a large 'friendly discount' at the end of the process because they can't afford the bill, but when I give a flat rate, I often end up working way more than I ought to for the money I'm getting. Should I lower my hourly rate so that the clients can afford it? It's a tricky situation and I'd love to hear how others decide what to charge.
It sounds to me as thought the problem isn't with how you charge, but with how you estimate the likely duration of your involvement in a project. -
I personally have a dailly rate. If i think the job will not take a days work i simply devide my daily rate by 8 (as in hours) and charge accordingly. I worked my dailly rate out by deciding how much i think I am worth together with my 'normal' outgoings, ie. rent bills etc over the course of a year. I wont be working 52 weeks of the year on freelance jobs (because im not that lucky) so I charge on the view that i will work half of that. So i basically double my annual salary and that way by working only 6 months of the year i earn enough to live for a year. I think it is important to set out from the start as clearly as possible how many hours you are going to spend on the clients work and detail exactly what the client will get for this, it is equally as important to set out your charges for any additional work, i.e. the client decides they want changes.
-
- CommentAuthorbill posters
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2007
-
One thing which I think you might not be taking into account is your efficiency. In the latest podcast, Money Matters for those of you reading this 50 years time, he suggests charging for 70% of the time. Perhaps you could look into that?
-
I think the important thing here is to set out a specification document that details the deliverables. Basics I would include would be the number of pages, the number of different design templates (e.g. one for the homepage another for the other pages in the site), any other features they have requested. It's also worth including what you're NOT going to do as well, for example they might have a shop or another area of the site that they haven't mentioned to you and that you weren't going to include in your re-design or whatever it may be - never make assumptions! Once creep starts to occur you can refer the client back to the specification and quote for the additional work. That way you can give a fixed cost that you know you can stick to.
If you want to be bullet proof I would also stipulate content delivery in digital formats, just so the client doesn't turn up with pages of handwritten content for you to type out! Plus the number of design iterations so the design phase doesn't go on indefinitely.
Hope that helps. -
- CommentAuthorCurtisMcHale
- CommentTimeJun 20th 2007
I was listening to an old Boagworld podcast where Paul said that they drew a site tree. This would show each page that was being designed. This also would help ensure that you don't get creep with the site. -
The only way of getting away from scope creep is meeting the client before the project starts. You have probably submitted a quote for say 5 to 10 page site. But you need to then sit down with the client with your pen and paper and go, 'this is the layout of the site and all related pages.' Like Paul said in the podcast. Basically draw out the tree which hopefully they agree on. Get them to sign it and then say, if anything else is added, this wil be done at an hourly rate.
I have been b*ggered by clients before with having to add aditional pages etc. Sometimes it is fine if it is a small enough site and you are helping them out. I think it is good to be helpful to a degree. It is very hard to stop this happening though if it hasn't been defined before.
Also I never give them an actuall hourly rate, just a flat quote. The hourly rate is just for self reference. My hourly rate is quite high, so I have to bring it down a little this for a project. -
Great information and lots of food for thought, an excellent point was made about efficiency, how do you accurately estimate time needed for a project?
I often find clients are more ready to commit to a project if I provide them with a quote for the whole job than propose an hourly rate but this can lead to massive scope creep.
I also agree that most clients don't have much of an idea about what they really want to archive, recently a potential client showed me a site on the net and told me I want that one, when pressed about providing copy he said just use theirs and tweak it same with the graphics.....how much. I tried to explain about copyright etc but some people just seem blinkered. -
i'm so glad to find this thread - i'm having a lot of trouble with this sort of thing at the moment.
previously i have charged fixed quotes but like the poster above have found myself working 12/14 hour days for below minimum wage to get the job finished.
when i was starting out and building my portfolio that was fine but i'm now starting to get to the stage where i am producing work of a decent enough standard that i feel i should at least be getting paid a decent hourly rate. however what i am finding is that because my main demographic is bands/small businesses etc.. they are balking at the prices. and i am cheap! i understand why it's difficult for people to stump up - but i need to be paid fairly too...
any advice on retaining/gaining work but not running yourself into the ground would be greatly welcome... -
You are right the smu this thread seems to have gone a bit cold.
I was hoping this could shed some further light on this very matter....maybe someone else will join in. -
-
CommentAuthorJamieKnight
- CommentTimeJul 3rd 2007
hiya,
i never know how much to charge so i try to do what i feel is fair, and balence it byt what the can afford. if it an NPO then i will not accept any money form them apart form the costs for hosting so i do not make any profit from them.
I supose age has something to do with it to... i am 17 and many people do not take me seriosly unless one of my previos "adult" clients has recommmended me.
One thing which i do find frustrating is when clients dont understand enogh about what they are asking you to be able to tell you what they want... somtime this is the most annoying stage for me.
The sort of projects i like the most are the ones where i just geta spec and a brief.... these normally come form the web desing company i work with and often these are the sites i would prefer to do. I am not great with client and i am great at misunderstanding things (autism is like that) and sometimes the added stress of trying to understand what people are asking me to do can make a project feel a thosand time complictaed than te actual code...
anyway, i am going on now... good topic...
^licks^
jammie & lion -
-
- CommentAuthoricemancast
- CommentTimeJul 19th 2007
hey guys i also found this link http://www.sitepoint.com/article/web-work-should-charge.
i usually also have a set price for design with so many pages. and add on from there. also wanted to get your guys opinion about this... i am considering to buy it.
http://www.sitepoint.com/kits/freelance1/ -
-
CommentAuthorThe Tall Designer
- CommentTimeJul 19th 2007
they are balking at the prices. and i am cheap!
Put it this way - do half the work for double the money.
Just say no to clients who won't pay well enough, if your good, your good, and you will get the money you deserve. -
-
- CommentAuthoricemancast
- CommentTimeJul 19th 2007
Tetsugaku-San, i agree with with you. i have been doing freelance for years and i am learning this now.
quote from this link: http://www.commarts.com/CA/colfree/marP_335.htmlMy general rule is if they want to pay less, they get less. And sometimes it’s OK to walk away from a project if it’s not a good financial fit. Saying ‘No’ is OK. It actually positions you to look more desirable.�
http://websitetips.com/business/plan/
another resource -
that's a great article icemancast - there is some really great advice on how to discuss budgets in it. thanks for the link!
1 to 18 of 18