Elitism in web design
Posted in News on: Friday, March 16, 2007 by Paul Boag
Every time I attend a web design conference the same issue raises it ugly head; elitism. This time around it seems to be targeted at the Brit Pack.
I have just gotten off the phone with Andy Clarke. I was arranging for him to come on next weeks .net podcast. While chatting he asked if he could discuss the issue of elitism because the members of the Brit Pack were coming under criticism for it at SXSW. He has just posted about it on his blog and I thought I would share my thoughts on the subject as I find myself in the strange position of having a foot in both camps.
The Brit Pack Booze Up?
As you probably already know if you listen to my podcast, Boagworld was a joint sponsor of the Great British Booze Up, a party at SXSW. It was a hugely successful evening mainly thanks to the hard work of Andy Budd and the clear:left team who put an enormous amount of effort in making the evening work. However, I did find myself getting irritated a number of times throughout the evening when people referred to it as a Brit Pack event. It wasn’t a Brit Pack event as I was one of the primary sponsors and I am not a member of the Brit Pack. Things came to a head for me when somebody said exactly the same thing yet again while I was standing next to Andy Clarke. I finally cracked and very pointedly explained that it wasn’t a Brit Pack event because I wasn’t a member. Andy, to his credit immediately turned around and said he would make sure I was added.
What was interesting was how this made me feel. On one hand I was really pleased. It made me feel like I had “made the big time” in someway and that my contribution to the community was valued. However, on the other hand it pissed me off because what Andy obviously didn’t remember was that I asked if I could join back in 2005 (when the world had yet to be exposed to the wonder that was my podcast) and he very politely said no.
Is it okay to exclude others?
So was Andy wrong to exclude me back in 2005? Am I only now being offered a place because I am more well known? Is the Brit Pack an elitist group that only allows in the select and “famous” few?
Personally I feel that there maybe an element of elitism but if there is it is certainly not intentional and it is not something we should be criticizing. Sure, back in 2005 I was somewhat annoyed that I wasn’t accepted into the “club” and felt excluded for not being “famous” enough. But I think that was my problem and not Andy’s. To him it was just a few of his mates on a mailing list chatting. I wanted to join simply to be associated with that group of people who I respected and admired. I didn’t really have much to contribute and was more interested in promoting my site through the Brit Pack than I was in adding anything of value. Andy didn’t know me from Adam and was perfectly within his rights to protect his group of friends.
Networking happens
Everybody is trying to impress somebody at SXSW. Everybody wants to speak to those who they admire and this can lead to some hurt feelings along the way. I remember speaking to a hero of mine (who shall remain nameless) and we were having a very nice conversation up until the point he spotted somebody more important. Instantly he ended the conversation and moved on to this new person. I was incredibly hurt by this until I caught myself doing exactly the same thing to somebody who listens to the show! I didn’t do it on purpose, and I suspect neither did the person with whom I was talking. It was just that this was the first time I had seen the person all week and didn’t want to miss the opportunity.
I guess what I am saying is that we need to accept that friendship groups are okay and that networking is an important part of these large conferences. It occurs in every walk of life and is not within itself a bad thing.
Maybe the guys in the Brit Pack have been a little naive about how they are perceived and the influence they have. They probably don’t realize they are in the “cool club” and to be honest I think we need to keep it that way. After all imagine how much worse it would if they knew how much we all wanted to emulate them :)
My advise is that if you feel excluded from a group like the Brit Pack you have one of three choices. Set up your own group (which is after all how the Brit Pack came about), start adding real value to the community until they finally come around and recognise your contribution, or bitch about it. The choice is yours.
36 Comments
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I have to admit that it’s really easy to get offended by the perceived elitism of those in the limelight. In particular because the reason for which they seem to be known in the first place is due to their skills and knowledge. That’s the rub though, because for every popular person there are probably a hundred unknowns who are just as good if not better in the skills department. So thinking that acceptance is due to ability makes one prone to hurt feelings because it really isn’t the case at all. In fact, it’s a bit of ingroup bias mixed with the reality check that not everyone can be popular because then nobody will be popular. But you’re right, the choice is ours. We can go ahead and make our own foray into fame or try to ride the coattails of others (which usually has the negative effect of making you look like a wannabe).
When situations like this arise I am always reminded of the quote by Groucho Marx:
“I wouldn’t join any club that would have me for a member.”
It puts everything into perspective.
Just one thing struck me about your post and I am playing Devils advocate now.
You say you were ‘pissed off’? Quite rightly. You were asking to join a group of like minded people, but Andy said no. You say ‘you felt you weren’t famous enough’? But you were talented and vocal enough, even back then! But why did he say no? Why would he have not included you? Just wondering about his decision.
Anyway, this crap will always go on. Trumped up little people will always build a little wall around themselves. Groucho was right.
Living and working as a designer in Ireland can be a frustrating experience. It is extremely cliquey as there are so little of us and there are aren’t enough chances to meet people. I can sympathise with new designers coming to an event like this and feeling left out.
My threepence worth.
Thanks Paul for sharing that.
I have been a fan of yours and many others in the Web Standards community for quite some time now, and I have always wondered if I will ever become part of that ‘elite’ group.
You have inspired me to become more involved in the community and, although it won’t be much, I will try to contribute where I can.
It’s good to know that the people I look up to in the industry are also human and have felt how I feel now.
Your podcasts and blog entries are much appreciated!
from the website
“And for people who are quite clearly humour impaired, the above is all a piss-take…this is just an email list of a few friends, our virtual watercooler. If you think it’s elitist or whatever, you obviously didn’t get the joke…”
humm did paul just get burned?
Replying to mike (in last post), the amended text on the site was up there before Paul posted this entry, it wasn’t a reaction to this post and I can assure you that Paul is alive and has not been burned. Well, not much :-D
@Carlo… they turned me away Carlo because they didn’t know me. Andy clearly states that the Brit Pack is his group of friends and that is what he told me when I asked. You can’t fault somebody for listing their friends on their website!
Fair enough Paul, just interested by that comment. I like to feel the emotion!
It’s like Sky ‘Just Breaking’ News. Did you just get burned my friend or what is happening?
Hmmm… as always it seems people are getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. I was sharing my experiences with the Brit Pack purely to demonstrate that people can get upset about illogical things and that we shouldn’t read to much into what the Brit Pack is. Sigh, I think I will just stop talking now.
I think the one thing that I feel has always been missing from the Web design community are leaders who develop those who are learning and on their way up.
Its so typical of Web cognoscenti to dismiss anyone who isn’t quite on their level.
That’s why the lack of snobbery on Paul’s p/cast is so refreshing. Nice 1 Paul!
I agree and hear ya Paul. My thoughts are though, if you’re good friends nowadays with those guys then why shouldn’t you be on his lift of mates on his website??
Quite beside the fact that you’re all top class designers and have a lot to give aspiring designers like myself. I read all your blogs and find them very insteresting and informative – without the brit pack list, I’d not have found half the guys I have, because they are mates listed on a site, mates who have the same hobbies and skills… hardly a crime?
My hat off to all the guys, thanks for all the fab info :)
the britpack was never meant to be the pack of “leaders”, or anything else…it’s a list of people who like to share a bit of bollocks and banter via email. the fact that it has ever been perceived as a mark of achievement puzzles me, frankly. membership of the list has never been about “if you’re good enough”…after all, this ain’t GAWDS…
It shouldn’t puzzle you Patrick. If the Brit pack is made up of leading speakers, writers and bloggers then you are going to be perceived as “leaders”. It is inevitable. The problem is that it is self fulfilling. Because you guys write, blog and speak you meet other people who write, blog and speak. You become friends with them and add them to the Brit pack. Its a catch 22 which you are stuck with I am afraid :)
My point is that it doesn’t matter. If people get hung up about it then its there problem not yours.
I have always viewed the Brit Pack as leaders in some ways. Having a group of friends is one thing, but once you start making something public, branding it, and declaring your membership of it there is a certain inevitability about the way it is going to be perceived. This is especially true when the group features some of the most respected individuals in the industry.
I have never thought of them as elitist, and any criticisms are almost certainly driven by jealousy. The real world isn’t My Space, you don’t get to be friends just by asking, and you don’t become part of a community without realistic participation.
Having said all that, really, what is wrong with a little elitism? If people are suggesting the Brit Pack think they are better than others then I doubt that is the case, on the other hand how many of us want to be surrounded by adoring muppets that bring nothing to the table?
Are you sure you are not just a bit miffed you could go play with the Web Rock Gods. But now they have looked down at you and remembered you name. :)
Sadly you have knocked the networking status thing on the head. This is something people should be aware of when they are doing it. What you should do is invite the other person (that you are talking to) to go with you to hob nob with the guru you have just seen. You should never be rude.
This sort of elitist nonsense is rampart in certain parts of the web world. There are so many designers and coders in the UK who don’t feel the need to promote themselves constantly with this sort of ‘look at us – aren’t we cool’ stuff – those people are the ones I respect.
I think people generally tend to be suspicious of any gang or group they are not part of, but aligned with / parallel to; and as you say it’s their problem.
Having had the chance to chat on the telephone, or meet various members at events my experiences are that they are far from elitist and are an approachable if sometimes quirky bunch ;-)
In fact on the quirky front if Pat and Bruce were ever to move out of the web field they’d probably be quite successful at stand-up (just as long as it was an unshockable adult audience only ;) )
[quote]demonstrate that people can get upset about illogical things[/quote]
But isnt this point Paul, we all get upset for things really we have no control over, it is weird what effects us, even from one person to the next.
It’s all very childish to be honest. The guys in the Brit Pack have worked incredibly hard to where they are and deserve to have that “status” whatever that status may be is what you make of it.
When I started designing and building websites initially back in 2000 I felt very lost by the mess that was the web. So I quit the industry and shut up shop. In 2006 I did a few google searches about this thing called “web standards” and these were the guys who were mentioned over and over again along with the those over the pond like Zeldman, Shea, Rubin and Croft to name just a few.
I started to feel that passion again, and what they were preaching (amen) was infectious and all of a sudden the iMac was switched on, book were purchased and I was reunited once again with my first love – web design. So before I start to go on about my personal history, I’ll stay on subject. I have emailed several times these so called web celebrities and they have been nothing short of great with their feedback, comments and advice. In fact I guess they actually feel a little embarrassed by all this bitching, after all we are all looking and working for the same goal. To create and to design beautiful & accessible sites for the web. If they have their own group then so be it, to be fair they should because they do nothing but great work, preach the holy book of web standards and provide great insight to their work and the process behind it. To those who feel it is elitist, you go and spend a year writing a kick ass book, or travel the world to give presentations that inspire. Or better still, you start your own group and show just how much you care.
Apologies for the length of this comment but quite frankly, it’s time to move on.
Great site Paul – you too have a lot of inspired listeners and I appreciate all your work.
Rant over.
I’m my own ‘member’.
I think Luke is boasting ;)
I didn’t even know there was a Brit pack. Sounds like play ground rubbish to me.
It just sounds like a clique to me.
lets all meet up at central perk :p
In art schools all over the world lecturers make examples of good design and point students in the direction of iconic figures and design movements.
I think you could draw parralels between the Bauhaus and the Brit Pack.
I bet there were people who were miffed that they weren’t in Walter Gropius’s gang back then it just wasn’t as easy to publish there thoughts.
To be honest, Paul, I think you’re spot on when you say “I think that was my problem and not Andy’s”
The problem wasn’t that Andy wanted to exclude you .. it was that you wanted to join.
Think about it another way … a few weeks ago Headscape celebrated their 99th Anniversary (or something like that) with a big do at some posh hotel (or something). At the time I’d done a couple of days freelancing for you guys, but I wasn’t invited! Should I have felt left out? Excluded?
Don’t worry – I didn’t
;o)
But to be honest I don’t see the difference. I don’t think you were being elitist. I think you just wanted to celebrate with your friends – which is cool by me.
Likewise it was my 30th birthday last weekend and I didn’t post a message on this board to invite people I didn’t know along. Does that make me elitist? Or does it mean I wanted to spend the day with my family and friends?
If Andy knew you well and refused you entry to the Brit Pack then that’s one thing .. but if you’re just some random stranger .. no matter how talented .. why should they? I don’t think they’re being any more elitist than Tom Cruise was by not inviting me to his wedding. It’s not because he’s elitist .. it’s just that he doesn’t know me.
For what it’s worth Andy hasn’t invited me to join the Brit Pack either.
:o(
;o)
Seriously though .. who cares?
BTW, Paul, I just wanna make it clear that I know you weren’t accusing Andy or anyone else of being elitist .. the post was more directed at other people.
I think Luke is boasting…
it’s true.
On a more serious note, the concept of membership psychologically and sociologically is a fascinating topic. One that I’m no master of but love to discuss and learn about. This entry and it’s comments are a meaty example of this.
It’s a very tough call, isn’t it? On the one hand, any group that is selective in its membership is leaving itself open to charges of “elitism.” If not about the “elite,” then why not let anyone join who asks. On the other hand, there are other reasons for not allowing someone in. I know from experience that some groups of which I’ve been a member have wanted to keep their numbers small, or have felt that only people who they know well should really be allowed to join — in other words, it’s more of a social organization than anything else. Even so, no one likes to be excluded, and advertising yourself does suggest that you are trying to make a statement of some sort. Perhaps it’s less about elitism than about not being as diplomatic as they might have?
Thanks for very interesting Article.
Hehe, thank you for the Article, im member in my own Club :P
Of course there is elitism in web desgin. The people that know what they are doing want to keep what they know to themselves and the group in the “know”. There is a lot of money to be made in the field of web desgin these days. If they let their knowledge get out there, then they would have a lot more competition and the same amount of work. So they would be losing a lot of potential work if they let just everyone get into the same line of work with their know how. So there is a very good reason for there to be a lot of elitism out there right now. I do not see it going away anytime soon. If I was in the same position, I would not want people taking what could be a lot of work away from me so I can not blame them.
@birthdaygifts
The people that know what they are doing want to keep what they know to themselves and the group in the “know”. There is a lot of money to be made in the field of web desgin these days. If they let their knowledge get out there, then they would have a lot more competition and the same amount of work. So they would be losing a lot of potential work if they let just everyone get into the same line of work with their know how. So there is a very good reason for there to be a lot of elitism out there right now.
Sorry, but that doesn’t sound like any description of web design I know.
If people like Andy Budd, Andy Clarke want to keep their knowledge to themselves, perhaps writing best-selling books isn’t the best way to go about it?
What about all the people that blog and podcast, attend and organize conferences? Does that seem like a sensible way or running a closed shop?
I’m presuming you don’t work in the industry and, from the sounds of it, don’t know anybody that does.
I don’t think you’re being unfair here … I think you’re being ludicrous.
If there IS elitism – and I’m not saying there is – it’s of the “I’m cooler than you” variety, not some kind of Machiavellian attempt to stop people taking work away from the “elite”.
These are common clique dynamics and something that happens in all walks of life. Unfortunately, even though it’s not delibirate, we all do tend to have motives underlying a lot of what we do, and well do want to feel ‘in’ with a group of people we admire. This can sometimes have negative effects on friendships – and we often treat those who aren’t quite ‘in’ not with less respect, but only less time. I’m personally trying my best to get out of it, but networking has this horrible ability of also showing a rather ugly… unfriendly… side.
It’s very good article. Great site with very good look and perfect information.
My mentor always mentions about this elitism thing. According to him, if there’s such thing as e-mail for snail mail, elitism is for electronic discrimination. I didn’t know actually if this is true but probably I’m just lucky that I haven’t experienced this so far. If, all of us are destined to experience this what should we do?
There are many useful informations in this article. Thanks and greetings from Thuringia!