Gridset, Trello, SoundGecko and Coda vs Espresso

This week we cover a great grid tool, enjoy list nirvana, and learn to listen to our reading list. We also put Coda 2 and Espresso head to head.

Play

On this week’s show we cover:

Paul Boag:
I’ve come to a realization…

Marcus Lillington:
What’s that, Paul?

Paul Boag:
Well, the realization I’ve come to is that every week I say, hello and welcome to Boagworld.com, et cetera, but actually that’s in the intro music.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So, why do we say it twice?

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, no, no, it’s not in the music. No, no, no.

Paul Boag:
It is. You’ve got a little talky bit that says hello and welcome to…

Marcus Lillington:
No that’s long gone. It’s edited down to about 30 seconds, the intro music.

Paul Boag:
I am sure it’s in there.

Marcus Lillington:
No, it’s not.

Paul Boag:
Okay, well, in that case, hello and welcome to Boagworld.com, the podcast for all those involved in designing, developing, and running websites on a daily basis. My name is Paul Boag:.

Marcus Lillington:
My name is Marcus.

Leigh Howells
And my name is Leigh.

Marcus Lillington:
Hello, Leigh.

Paul Boag:
Leigh’s with us.

Leigh Howells
Hang on, but it’s now about – it’s a show about looking at apps, so surely that needs to change.

Paul Boag:
No.

Leigh Howells
For all those who want to look at apps.

Paul Boag:
No, for those who design, develop, and run websites. All the apps we talk about are web design related, we haven’t stopped doing web design.

Leigh Howells
Okay, fair enough.

Paul Boag:
We’re not talking about kind of random apps, you know…

Leigh Howells
For all those who like playing with new toys.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s what it is –

Paul Boag:
It is. Just a –

Marcus Lillington:
And you’re right, Leigh, but, yeah.

Paul Boag:
So there we are – but anyway that’s only for this season and then next season – well, I don’t know what we could do next season, I was thinking about just doing Q&A season where people can write in questions, I don’t know yet. That’d be interesting. If you’ve got an idea for post-Christmas, let us know at [email protected] and we will certainly consider it. Also, while you’ll be all interactive with this, go along to boagworld.com/apps and suggest some more apps for us to cover.

Marcus Lillington:
Is the Boagworld app itself available now?

Paul Boag:
Yes, it is.

Marcus Lillington:
Right. Go and download that.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Why?

Marcus Lillington:
Why not?

Paul Boag:
Why do they want to?

Marcus Lillington:
Because it has got lots of jokes on it.

Paul Boag:
That’s the only thing that it’s got that the website doesn’t have.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, but it’s offline, isn’t it? You can carry around every word of wisdom you’ve ever written.

Paul Boag:
When you’re not online.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, so if you’re out in the middle of nowhere and you think, oh, what did Paul say?

Paul Boag:
But you can’t listen to the podcast, because that’s…

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s…

Leigh Howells
Well, I don’t think anybody – I don’t think anybody wants a complete archive of everything that you’ve ever said on audio…

Paul Boag:
Well, I don’t want a complete archive of everything I’ve ever said.

Leigh Howells
Gigabytes of data on their phone.

Paul Boag:
No. Absolutely, no. I haven’t written that much. I’ve probably said that much. It’s true.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s free and it’s got jokes on it.

Paul Boag:
I’ll tell you…

Marcus Lillington:
What more do you want?

Paul Boag:
I’ll tell you…

Leigh Howells
It’s pretty as well.

Paul Boag:
The other thing that it has got on which I don’t think a lot of people realize that I do, a lot of people that listen to the podcast, don’t realize the little audio tips I do as well which are very cool, if I do say so myself…

Marcus Lillington:
They’re very cool.

Paul Boag:
I actually think…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
I think they’re better than podcasts because they don’t have you two on it. So generally…

Marcus Lillington:
I find those a little bit cringy myself, but there you go.

Paul Boag:
What you mean cringy? What do you mean by that?

Leigh Howells
The video ones you mean?

Paul Boag:
No, not the video ones…

Leigh Howells
Where you can actually see him.

Paul Boag:
I hate the video ones.

Leigh Howells
They’re just scary.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah it’s like, they are scary and the audio ones are cringy.

Paul Boag:
Why are the audio ones cringy?

Marcus Lillington:
They are not cringy.

Paul Boag:
Justify that.

Marcus Lillington:
You said they were cool so I had to come back with a…

Paul Boag:
They are brilliant.

Leigh Howells
Another c word.

Paul Boag:
I want to go back to America. They liked me there.

Marcus Lillington:
Where people like you.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I said that so many times from my musical career, I want to go back to America where people like me.

Paul Boag:
And now people don’t like you anywhere, so that’s good…

Marcus Lillington:
Well, there’s probably one or two that still do.

Paul Boag:
Maybe.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s probably literally one or two.

Paul Boag:
One or two.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Middle-aged housewives. Of Orange County, you know whatever.

Marcus Lillington:
Housewives.

Paul Boag:
Housewives.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve been out mushrooming in Dorset, all last weekend.

Leigh Howells
Oh, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
It was lovely.

Leigh Howells
With famous people.

Paul Boag:
What you mean famous people?

Leigh Howells
Famous mushroom people.

Marcus Lillington:
John Wright, who’s on…

Paul Boag:
Who’s that?

Marcus Lillington:
Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s program. He’s just like this kind of country boy that goes out and does foraging.

Leigh Howells
In the mushroom world, he’s big, okay.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
In the mushroom world.

Leigh Howells
Yeah. It’s a small world.

Paul Boag:
Well it’s no different to the web design world.

Leigh Howells
He’s probably got a mushroom podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Mushrooms are probably more popular.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
Anyway, it was great.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Dorset’s lovely where Paul lives.

Paul Boag:
Yes, it is. It’s the shire. That’s how you describe.

Leigh Howells
It’s not though, because it hasn’t got a shire on the end…

Marcus Lillington:
It hasn’t got a shire.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
But that’s when Tolkien was – actually it used to be Dorsetshire.

Leigh Howells
Did it really?

Marcus Lillington:
It still should be – it’s so still should be.

Paul Boag:
And when Tolkien was writing the Shire, it was Dorset that he was referring to.

Marcus Lillington:
So there you go.

Leigh Howells
It definitely wasn’t Cambridgeshire.

Paul Boag:
Actually it’s about as damp as a hole, my house.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s – so is mine.

Paul Boag:
I am looking forward to that. Not the damp house, the new The Hobbit film.

Leigh Howells
I do imagine you living in a hobbit hole.

Paul Boag:
Actually, have you never seen my house? No you haven’t have you. It’s a real let down. It’s 1970s end of terrace with white cladding on the front, like plastic cladding, it’s disgusting.

Leigh Howells
Oh like wood, pretend wood.

Paul Boag:
It’s not even pretending, it’s just – it is quite pitiful the outside of my house.

Leigh Howells
But you don’t have to paint it, so that’s a bonus.

Paul Boag:
No, that’s good. So, yes. But it does get really grimy and you have to clean it, because it’s white which is a really bad idea.

Leigh Howells
It sounds like hard work.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, our whole house is hard work, although not so bad now we’ve chopped down the massive oak tree.

Marcus Lillington:
Fancy living in Dorset…

Paul Boag:
Why we all discussing that?

Marcus Lillington:
…and living in a plastic house.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
You should be living in a mud house.

Paul Boag:
In a mud house. That’s what I’ve always wanted, a mud house.

Leigh Howells
And it definitely needs to be down a little lane, a windy lane. With a wiggly chimney with smoke rising gently.

Paul Boag:
I couldn’t – yes, I can understand that except there is a pain in the arse, I can just walk straight into town it takes me like two seconds and yet within five minutes I can be walking in meadows and woods…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I am kind of the same, yeah. It’s good to have both on the doorstep.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I’d love to be able to just look out of the bedroom window and just have that wonderful country vista.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I would like that.

Marcus Lillington:
…which I’ve kind of nearly got but not really. I’m next to a great big road.

Paul Boag:
We really have pretty much forgotten we’re recording a podcast right now, aren’t we? I am just very conscious that this is nothing to do with web design.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, fine. But it was quite nice. I mean, I just had a really nice weekend, in Dorset. I normally take the piss out of you being a Wurzel and I am just saying how nice it is, where you live.

Paul Boag:
It is lovely.

Marcus Lillington:
…for a change. I thought you needed cheering up, Paul, with your poorliness.

Paul Boag:
I am poorly. I’ve got jetlag. My life is just too, too difficult. I do – nobody appreciates how hard I work.

Leigh Howells
No, you’re right.

Paul Boag:
Everybody thinks…

Leigh Howells
Nobody does

Paul Boag:
You all think I just doss around, waltz around the world going to conferences…

Marcus Lillington:
What were your words to me when we met up last night for a curry, it was “I have slept all day”.

Paul Boag:
I had, yes…

Leigh Howells
And then you wonder why you can’t sleep all night.

Paul Boag:
Look, it was a bad day, yesterday, can’t we just leave it as that? And it was very sad last night, wasn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
It was.

Paul Boag:
We said goodbye to bobscape and cargowire otherwise known as Rob and Craig.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, use their Twitter names first.

Leigh Howells
Oh that’s what they’re called!

Paul Boag:
I do, with Bob, I have the habit of just calling him bobscape, I don’t know why.

Marcus Lillington:
Fair enough.

Paul Boag:
But, no, that’s really sad, they going over – they going on to develop software.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
That’s proper stuff, isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, that’s what Bob says they do. They have nothing to do with mobile.

Paul Boag:
No, they don’t do mobile. They do software development.

Leigh Howells
Yeah. But you’re not going to mention their company name though, are you?

Paul Boag:
No, of course not. We’re not going to give them any free publicity. What do you think, we like them or something? Bastards.

Marcus Lillington:
No good luck to him, that’s what I say. It’s quite interesting that particularly Bob, you can see he’s got that kind of, oh, new company, how exciting, albeit scared, but it’s exciting and we’re just all like yeah…

Paul Boag:
We’re old, bitter and jaded.

Marcus Lillington:
I can remember that feeling.

Paul Boag:
When I was out in Freiburg at Smashing Magazine conference, we were sitting at the back, the speakers waiting to do our thing and there was a quiet room where we could do some work and we got talking and we realized we need to create new podcasts, the grumpy old men of web design. And grumpy old people, because we have Rachel Andrew was there as well and she is grumpy as us. We’ve all reached that age now where we just…

Leigh Howells
Well that’s why I thought this show should have the Last of the Summer Wine music. You know, kind of, old git…

Paul Boag:
Yeah. We’ve got to – we just reach that point in our lives where – these young people today they don’t know they’re born, do they. They don’t – they didn’t live through the browser wars and all that kind of thing.

Leigh Howells
No, they just jumped straight into…

Paul Boag:
They have all these cool apps…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…that we never had. And that brings us, what a brilliant segue that was, onto our first app of the week.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, but new stuff’s not as good as old stuff.

Paul Boag:
No, excuse me, that was my segue …

Marcus Lillington:
I know…

Paul Boag:
You can’t just cut across it.

Marcus Lillington:
I felt the need to ruin it. And that’s…

Gridset

Gridsetapp.com

Paul Boag:
I’m not going to say anything else now until we cut to the music. So talking about being grumpy, our first app is a designer app this week and it’s called Gridset. And it’s Gridsetapp.com. The reason I am grumpy, just before I came up here I was trying to get grids working. I thought I had this magical moment where it was like, so I’ve been playing around with LESS and ClearLESS, insert a thingy in the –

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Link in the show notes, that’s it.

Marcus Lillington:
I prefer the first version.

Paul Boag:
Well, no I need to say the word link otherwise I never find it when I search for it later. And yeah, I thought…

Marcus Lillington:
This is Mark Boulton’s work, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yes, Gridset is, but ClearLESS is from Clearleft, unsurprisingly.

Marcus Lillington:
Sorry, I am reading about the app.

Paul Boag:
Yes. And I am just – it looks so simple when I have been having problems with it which probably is my fault, no doubt not the guys at Clearleft. It’s just – this thing of grids, or making grids easy to produce is such a big thing at the moment and there are so many different options of how to do it. And Gridset is one of them; it’s produced as Marcus just said, by Mark Boulton. And it is quite cool, it’s unlike something like ClearLESS, it’s – you pay for it. But what you get for that is quite a cool set of stuffs. You get like a kind of Photoshop grid. You can basically – you login to the app, you can design and lay out a grid that you want, you can then take away a Photoshop document so that you can go in the Photoshop and you can build up stuff on the grid. You can also overlay a grid using a bit of JavaScript that they give you over an HTML page. And also they provide you with kind of production-ready code to start messing around and producing your grid with it.

So it’s all very cool and very powerful. It also – they allow you to do all kinds of very quiet sophisticated stuff with your grids. So it’s not just a matter of, here’s a 16-column grid or here’s a 12-column grid, you can do all kinds of fancy stuff like having grids of different widths, columns of different widths, and all that kind of stuff which is very nice. So they’ve certainly kind of given you everything you need. And I’ve had a play with it, and it’s really good. You can also use it with something like LESS if you wish to, which means that you don’t necessarily need to have loads of extraneous markup in your HTML anymore which is always the thing that’s put me off of grid systems in the past is the idea that you have to kind of end up with all this extra markup in your HTML.

So it’s pretty impressive, it’s pretty good. I have to say, it feels a little bit overkill for me, because it was interesting – the other aspect to all of this is something that’s coming up called Adobe Reflow, which I’ll put a link in the show notes to that, which is a new design tool that’s kind of really designed for the web, rather than Photoshop which is obviously in for photo manipulation and other stuff. So there’s this great tool coming out, with Adobe Reflow. And I was talking to the guys at Adobe yesterday about this, and one of the things I said to him is, have you checked out Gridset, can, for example, in their grid system – in Adobe Reflow’s grid system, I was asking whether you could have different width columns…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…and all this kind of stuff. And he said to me, he said, have you ever and do you consider yourself ever really wanting to do that, because we don’t support it at the moment. And I can’t say I ever do really, you just…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I’ve only just realized that it does let you have different width columns because isn’t that – not in the spirit of having a grid system. It’s not a grid…

Paul Boag:
Well, no, it is – it kind of comes across from print design where you do that kind of thing but I just don’t know whether it’s that useful. I can’t make up my mind.

Leigh Howells
I don’t know.

Marcus Lillington:
So what you’re basically saying rather than having a – I don’t know, a three-sixteenths column or a four-sixteenth column, you can literally change your sixteenths.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
You can have it sixteenths up to three quarters of the way across and then it can be twelfths or whatever.

Paul Boag:
Yes, you can do all kinds of things, yeah, like that which I don’t know how much I would actually use. So I can’t make up my mind. The moment I am playing with it, as I said I am playing with ClearLESS and I am hoping that I can get that working. And if I can, then why would I want to pay for something like Gridset, what does it really give me beyond one of the free options?

Leigh Howells
I suppose it gives you the – kind of the WYSIWYG editor, doesn’t it? It gives you that, which depending on your technical level might be an easy way into grids rather than just delving around in the code.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, I guess so. And it also gives you I guess the Photoshop…

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…document to go with it and it gives you that overlay and stuff like that. And it’s not very expensive. I can’t remember what the price…

Leigh Howells
$8 or something per grid – well there’s different schemes aren’t there, different payments…

Paul Boag:
Yeah. So you can pay $12 per Gridset which is £8….

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…or $18 per month unlimited usage on as many different things as you want to, so really I imagine most people will just pay the £8 per Gridset which you think in a project £8 is nothing. Is it really?

So it may well be worth getting but I can’t – I don’t know, I can’t quite make up my mind about it. So – but it is worth checking out, go and check it out at Gridsetapp.com, and have a little play around with it and see what you think yourself. You can have a trial, where you can use it and have a go and all the rest of it. So it’s – you need to get in there and give it a go yourself. I’d be interested to see what other people do in terms of grid systems. What do you guys use if you go along to the show notes, Boagworld.com/apps and then select episode five, let me know in the comments because there’s lots of different opinions about this particular thing. And I know Ed likes to roll his own.

Leigh Howells
He certainly does.

Paul Boag:
…which I can understand.

Leigh Howells
Because he understands it, yeah, I can get that.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. That’s the big thing. One of the things I liked about ClearLESS is I could go in, look at it and I got it and I understood it even though I am currently having trouble to get it working.

Leigh Howells
So you don’t understand it?

Paul Boag:
Well, I thought I understood it. But it’s just when we happened to be recording this podcast if we were recording it a couple hours later, I hope that I won’t be going, I don’t understand this and what’s going on. It looks very straightforward where I’m wondering whether some of the other grid systems are a lot more complicated.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean I’ve looked at lots of them, I haven’t actually tried to use any of them in anger but there seem to be so many other things I don’t really know where to start.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
I mean there’s probably lots of lots of posts about 10 grid systems which make your life wonderful.

Paul Boag:
Because I mean we talked last week about Twitter Bootstrap, I think that was last week, might be the week before, who knows. And that’s another one that’s got a grid system built into it, you know…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
And then if use SASS then there is COMPASS, link in the show notes, which has got a grid system built into it as well.

Leigh Howells
I’ve got a thing here.

Paul Boag:
What’s that? What you can do.

Leigh Howells
I’m going to go… [sound effect]

Paul Boag:
What’s that for?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s R2-D2.

Paul Boag:
Why have you just played that?

Leigh Howells
That was like an audio QR code, a link to Gridsetapp using chirp.

Paul Boag:
That’s ridiculous.

Leigh Howells
I love it.

Paul Boag:
That is – So, what do you mean that’s an audio QR code?

Leigh Howells
Yeah, you can either send people pictures or notes or links.

Paul Boag:
So if you happen to have the right application…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, if you got chirp running, it will listen and it will give you the link – me and Ed were sending messages to each other with these little chirpy sounds.

Paul Boag:
I’ve never come across this.

Leigh Howells
I think they sound cool.

Marcus Lillington:
Sounds like R2-D2 to me.

Leigh Howells
It will never take off, will it?

Paul Boag:
I like QR code.

Leigh Howells
It’s fun. I know I’ve actually…

Paul Boag:
How dumb are they?

Leigh Howells
I’ve tried a few times – an audio QR code, oh it doesn’t work. Why doesn’t it work?

Paul Boag:
It’s pointless. You might as well type in the blooming URL, honestly, anyway. So there we go, that is Gridset, check it out, it is worth having a look at and I think it has got a lot of potential. If nothing else, it will get you starting to work seriously with grids and gives them the attention they deserve because they are a massively important part of design process and I think everybody should build their designs on a grid system even if they choose to break that grid system at times. It’s the old thing, isn’t it? About how you need to know how to paint properly before you can start doing Picasso type work and you need a good grid system before you start breaking…

Leigh Howells
Breaking the whole thing and not using it, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
One small complaint, Mr. Boulton, your site refers to Oxford Brookes University responsive site, and it’s not responsive.

Leigh Howells
Perhaps it’s a new one.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m sure it’s a new one coming up.

Paul Boag:
That’s not the point.

Marcus Lillington:
But the new one – if it’s not there, you can’t go and look at it.

Leigh Howells
It’s planning ahead.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. So there we go, that is Gridset. Let’s move on.

Coda 2 vs Espresso

Coda website

Okay. So next up, we are talking about developer tools and in particular we are going to compare Coda 2 with Espresso. Now if you’ve got a silly little noise to go with this?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s kind of in the same one, isn’t it?

Leigh Howells
No, no, it’s completely different. [sound effect]

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not. That is not completely different.

Leigh Howells
It is. Can you not tell?

Paul Boag:
Do you remember back in the day where you used to, the radio would play like Spectrum – when we all had Spectrums and everything was on cassette and the radio would occasionally play a load of code over it, which you could record, run on your spectrum and it would play again.

Leigh Howells
I don’t remember that. On the radio.

Paul Boag:
It never worked, it never worked. But that was the principle of it.

Leigh Howells
I saw a site recently that you could actually record a Spectrum loading sound from…

Marcus Lillington:
Leigh if you play that one more time, I’m going to break your phone.

Leigh Howells
That said “hello Paul”.

Paul Boag:
Alright.

Leigh Howells
And as an audio…

Paul Boag:
How – I don’t even know where to begin. So…

Marcus Lillington:
Seeing as we’re talking about developer tools, can I go and get a coffee?

Paul Boag:
No, you cannot have a coffee. You cannot get coffee. You have to say witty things throughout this, you know your job.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
So Coda 2 versus Espresso, these are the two big kind of coding tools on the Mac and there’s a lot of kind of back and forth about which way to go with this and which tool you should pick out of the two. And I am kind of being me have used both and flick from one to the other.

Leigh Howells
Me too.

Paul Boag:
What’s your impression?

Leigh Howells
My impressions are I still like Dreamweaver. Yes, I’m old school.

Paul Boag:
Well, no, there is nothing wrong with Dreamweaver, I mean, you know, okay, setting aside the WYSIWYG environment.

Leigh Howells
I’ve never used either with anger. I think that’s the problem. I’ve never actually done a proper project…

Paul Boag:
Right.

Leigh Howells
… in either to fully understand. I have always gone into both of them with little projects where something like Dreamweaver was more useful to me where I wanted to click around visually…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
And jump to a bit of code.

Paul Boag:
I always – I was thinking about that because you said earlier that you know you used – effectively you used the preview…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…window to jump to a bit of code.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
But that’s just going to jump into the relevant part in the HTML, right?

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Well, most of the work you do is in the CSS anyway.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, it depends on what I’m doing.

Paul Boag:
And also something like Coda or Espresso has got a DOM that you can just jump to wherever you want in the DOM.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I’ve just got this visual way of working, yeah.

Paul Boag:
I tell you what, what Dreamweaver does do which – this is turning to Dreamweaver, Coda and Espresso, what Dreamweaver does do that I like is that it will identify orphaned images and orphaned stuff…

Leigh Howells

Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…that isn’t actually being used on the site because I am terrible for that like I save an image and then I add another one in and then I dump the first one and don’t remove it. So clean up your code which I like, that’s really good.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
But let’s talk a bit about Coda and Espresso and my kind of feelings about each of these and which ones I like and why I like it, et cetera. They are very similar. I mean they do all the kind of things that you’d expect of these kinds of applications that they all support obviously all the CSS3 features, they’ve all got really good coding environments that support code folding. They support snippets, all of that kind of stuff. Both of them you can – have got a plug-in architectures, so you can support other languages like LESS for example or SASS, you can do stuff with that. Both of them have now got this kind of live styling and updating so as you change something it automatically updates the stuff. Both of them have got really good support for all kinds of the core set of features that you’d expect.

<

p>So what’s the difference between the two? Where did they kind of start parting ways? I think Coda 2 has a better search facility than Espresso. So you can do things like put place holders in your search if you’re doing a find and replace which is really good. So you can say essentially I’m just trying to think of an example that you can find every occurrence of a

<

p> tag with a certain class name irrespective of what the content of the

tag is and then you could wrap that content in a strong tag. So it’s like a wildcard kind of thing. Does that makes sense? So that, I think, is a really good thing about Coda that I absolutely love. Coda has also got support for source control which is really good. It’s got GIT built in.

Leigh Howells
Not that you use it!

Paul Boag:
Well, as from today I am…

Leigh Howells
You are now using it.

Paul Boag:
Because I am being made to. Well, I don’t like source control, I like to live life on the edge. So it’s got that which I really like. I think I prefer the clipping, it’s got the clips in preference to the snippets that Espresso has. I personally find those a little bit better, I think visually it’s a more attractive application. So that kind of goes…

Marcus Lillington:
So it’s Coda then, so we move on.

Paul Boag:
So I haven’t done Espresso yet.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, I’m joking.

Paul Boag:
Alright.

Leigh Howells
I do like the green leaf I have to say.

Paul Boag:
It’s pretty green. But I like the cup as well.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ll tell you exactly why we should pick one or the other in a minute. But carry on.

Paul Boag:
So Espresso – I’m just ignoring Marcus because it’ll just be some stupid article. It won’t actually be of any value whatsoever.

Marcus Lillington:
It will.

Paul Boag:
So Espresso has got a couple of nice things that I like. You can effectively edit live sites, so it’s got this kind of web preview with X-ray facility. See that allows you to do, I’m just trying to remember exactly how it works, what – it is a little bit like what you like from Dreamweaver, not quite but a little bit like that which is quite good. You can see and you can make CSS changes to a live site and see how those changes affect the live site even though you’re working locally…

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…which is kind of quite useful, a bit like a glorified Web Inspector.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, Dreamweaver’s got that now, live view.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
It’s very useful.

Paul Boag:
So that’s kind of cool, which Coda doesn’t have. Also another thing I really like about Espresso is you can group CSS. So you can almost like put chunks of CSS in folders that you can collapse up which is nice though if you’ve got a really big CSS file for kind of working around it and editing it. So that’s really nice. Also, I think it’s got a slightly better publishing facility than Coda has with – there it will do a comparison to the live site and see which files have changed and sync them, which Coda doesn’t do quite as well. So it really is a tossup between these two. I find it very hard to kind of decide between them. Now, I did think at one stage I thought, oh, Coda is going to be great because there’s this Diet Coda which is the kind of a version for the iPad and that allows you to preview stuff on the iPad.

Well, to be honest, there’s Adobe Inspect, insert link in show notes here, previously called Adobe Shadow that kind of allows you to do that and does it way better. So a Diet Coda is great in its own right for making quick changes to a live site that – it’s great for that but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t sync any of your settings from the desktop Coda to Diet Coda. So there is no real advantage of using Coda on desktop.

Leigh Howells
I assumed it did. I’ve actually tried.

Paul Boag:
I know, so did I.

Leigh Howells
Oh, okay.

Paul Boag:
But it doesn’t. It doesn’t take across your site settings and stuff like that. So…

Leigh Howells
How do they vary on price, Espresso and Coda?

Paul Boag:
Oh, that’s a good question.

Marcus Lillington:
They’re exactly the same.

Paul Boag:
Are they really?

Marcus Lillington:
$75.

Paul Boag:
There you go. So it really is a tossup. I mean at the moment, I use Coda, I find the interface more visually attractive. I think that’s the main thing that sold it for me. And also the find and replace, the search and replace, was a good one. And it had slightly better LESS support as I remember. Those were the reasons for me going there. But I really, really do miss Espresso’s comments – sorry, it’s groups where you can fold up CSS, I do miss that. And I do miss its syncing abilities as well. So really what I want to do is squish the two products together.

Leigh Howells
That’s always is the way, whenever it comes to any kind of software.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
But I guess that’s because software companies compete and add new features and everybody always wants both, I want all the features.

Paul Boag:
I want all the features.

Leigh Howells
But they can’t because that will keep inventing new ones.

Paul Boag:
But I got to say there is no way I could justify Dreamweaver because like these two are $75 and Dreamweaver is like $300 or something.

Marcus Lillington:
Coda 2 is £50 but I am sure I saw it earlier for $75 and that’s what Espresso is.

Paul Boag:
Right. Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
It sounds about right.

Paul Boag:
Sounds yes, so it does sound about right. So they’re both really good, couldn’t really – it’s a tossup. I honestly can’t tell you which one is better.

Marcus Lillington:
What use is this show then?

Paul Boag:
So that’s, absolutely no use, but hopefully I have given you an idea of what’s different about them and that maybe will help you make a decision.

Leigh Howells
And you said Coda is prettier. That counts for a lot, you spend a lot of times looking at it.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely.

Leigh Howells
And using it. So it’s got to look good.

Paul Boag:
I know there are lots of other text editors, Sublime Text, Vim, one that everybody is into at the moment….

Leigh Howells
TextMate. Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. But, we’ll talk about some of those in coming episodes. We – I’m trying to get a bit more user feedback on some of the other ones that I haven’t actually used. So, if – let me know in the show notes – or let us know in the show notes. Coda 2 versus Espresso, which one do you prefer or even Dreamweaver.

Leigh Howells
Dreamweaver.

Paul Boag:
No, if you think there is a big selling point in Dreamweaver, check it out. I was – again, when I was talking to the Adobe guys yesterday, the only – I think the biggest problem that Dreamweaver has got is, as a professional coder so to speak, whenever you say “I use Dreamweaver”, you immediately have to say “but I don’t use the WYSIWYG part”, you know?

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
It’s got bit of a tarnished reputation. But, it is a really good coding environment.

Leigh Howells
Yeah. But, as we say about the price for a coding environment, if you just use it for that…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
It doesn’t stack up against….

Paul Boag:
No.

Leigh Howells
…$75….

Marcus Lillington:
How much does Dreamweaver cost?

Leigh Howells
Hundreds…..

Paul Boag:
Hundreds….

Leigh Howells
But, when it’s part of the Creative Suite….

Paul Boag:
Yeah, the Creative Cloud thing….

Leigh Howells
…you don’t think about it as – in the same kind of way.

Marcus Lillington:
But, anyway, this is the reason and I – again, I can’t actually say which one you should go for but Espresso has the tagline “More productive than caffeine”, asterisk alright?

Leigh Howells
Okay.

Marcus Lillington:
Asterisk: “Exact increase in productivity not clinically tested.”

Now, if they’re taking the piss, you should – Espresso have a sense of humor; therefore, you should use those. If they’ve added that in because a lawyer told them to, then you shouldn’t buy it because they are idiots.

Paul Boag:
How do we know?

Leigh Howells
How do we decide?

Paul Boag:
We need to find out from them. We need to ring them up and say – essentially we need to say, this claim that you’re making on your website and see how they react and that will give us some idea.

Leigh Howells
Well, however much I want it to be for the comedy value, why do I – I cannot help but think it’s because of legal reasons.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly. That’s why I had to point it out.

Paul Boag:
No, I don’t believe it. So, I’m just pulling up the specs for Dreamweaver because I was going to see how much it was and they don’t tell you the price. They’re pushing you so heavily now towards this Creative Cloud.

Leigh Howells
Yeah. Can you actually buy it separately?

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I’m sure you must be able to, surely?

Leigh Howells
I don’t know.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s like trying to buy a single Microsoft product like Word on its own. It is possible but very hard to find it.

Leigh Howells
I think CS6 is ₤309.

Paul Boag:
₤309?

Marcus Lillington:
Dreamweaver comes in – gee whiz, that’s a lot of money.

Leigh Howells
Full retail box.

Paul Boag:
What do you think about this Creative Cloud thing where you get everything bundled together for a monthly fee?

Leigh Howells
I don’t know. I have heard various things which are a little bit negative.

Paul Boag:
Have you? Like what?

Leigh Howells
People needing an online – when you start it up, it does – now and again, it does an online check or something like that.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Leigh Howells
And, if you are in a place with bad connectivity, you can’t run the Suite but I think that’s only quite rare.

Paul Boag:
That wouldn’t put me off.

Leigh Howells
But….

Paul Boag:
I have to say the idea of getting the whole lot for a monthly fee and all the updates….

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I think it’s….

Marcus Lillington:
Assuming you’re going to use it all, then yeah, makes loads of sense.

Paul Boag:
I’ve got to say as well, just from a – if I was a freelancer, I think from a business point of view it makes a lot of sense as well because it’s – you don’t have that sudden one-off cost every couple of years or however often when you…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, it’s spreading the cost, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
So, it’s got to be good.

Paul Boag:
It’s more predictable.

Leigh Howells
How much is it, per month?

Paul Boag:
It’s not cheap. It’s not cheap. I can’t remember exactly. Gee, now, you’ve put me on the spot. I have no idea.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t know, ₤70 sounds….

Paul Boag:
Yeah, something like that.

Leigh Howells
…a month, really?

Paul Boag:
Yeah, it’s not cheap.

Marcus Lillington:
But, then if you want Photoshop….

Paul Boag:
No, there we go. One year – depends how long you sign up for, but if you do a year in one go, it’s 49 per month – It’s ₤49 per month – $49 per month.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s getting cheaper and cheaper.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Actually, that’s $50 per month, $49.99.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. But, you’ve got – what have you got in there? Photoshop….

Paul Boag:
Everything.

Marcus Lillington:
Illustrator….

Paul Boag:
The whole lot.

Marcus Lillington:
Dreamweaver.

Paul Boag:
Anything that they produce.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Leigh Howells
So do you get Audition? Audition is actually damn good.

Marcus Lillington:
What’s Audition?

Leigh Howells
It’s a multi-track digital audio workstation.

Paul Boag:
That’s good.

Marcus Lillington:
But, it’s part of the Adobe Suite?

Leigh Howells
Yeah. It used to be Cool Edit Pro which I didn’t realize, which I used to use and I keep – and I’ve ignored Audition for years but actually it’s really quite good now.

Paul Boag:
They do something else that I didn’t – I don’t think they used to do but they do now, which is for $19.99 per month you can get a full version of any one particular app. So, if you just use one app, say, Photoshop, so that’s pretty good. I quite like that. But, I’ve got to say the complete Suite for $49.99 per month looks pretty tempting. Also, if you are a student or a teacher, there is a $29.99 per month option.

Marcus Lillington:
For all it. That’s pretty good.

Leigh Howells
That’s good.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, that’s very good. Yeah.

Leigh Howells
Yeah. And, if you assume an update once a year or so….

Marcus Lillington:
I like – you know I like logic so stick with it.

Leigh Howells
Well, I know. But, if you were paying for the whole creative suite, and you’ve got it and you’re doing that kind of work….

Paul Boag:
This is a huge tangent now, isn’t it? It’s not what we’re supposed to be talking about at all. Right. Where’s, the…?

Leigh Howells
Dan moans about it, because of all the updaters updating the updaters.

Paul Boag:
Adobe have been – always been terrible about ridiculous amounts of pointless updates. I don’t know what they’re….

Leigh Howells
But that generally annoys me every day. Something is always updating.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, true.

Leigh Howells
I spend half – I must have spent at least half an hour a day updating things. You turn on your phone, everything is updating, little red icons…

Marcus Lillington:
This is a tangent on a tangent.

Leigh Howells
A tangent of a tangent,

Marcus Lillington:
A tangent of a tangent on a tangent, right. Whenever I – whenever there’s an update on my iPhone or on the Mac, I’m instantly – I’m straight in, update.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I turn on my wife’s iPad, 26 updates. I go through them all.

Paul Boag:
I’ve got the worst one. If you’ve got that obsessive-compulsive thing where you have to get rid of the badge….

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Right? iPhone 5, okay, Pocket updated their app to work with the iPhone 5 and be full screen, right? Take up extra space. Then, they found a bug but the bug only affects some people. So, it says if you have not experienced – if you do not experience a prompt to – what they have done is they have rolled back to the version which isn’t full screen, right? Does that make sense?

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
But, they’re saying if you don’t have a problem skip this update. So, I’m like I can’t cope because I haven’t had a problem and I want it full screen. But, there is this little icon – red icon there. It really, distresses me. It’s like, it is just there.

Marcus Lillington:
You should put it on a screen on its own….

Paul Boag:
Do you know – yeah, that’s what I ought to do. And, unfortunately, with those apps you can’t – it’s not like a normal app that you can turn off the badges. It always has to be there, taunting me.

Leigh Howells
The only one it doesn’t bother me on is the reminders app, where I just completely ignore it. I don’t know why.

Marcus Lillington:
Reminders got put away into a corner years ago….

Paul Boag:
You don’t need reminding. Shall we move on to something – maybe back on to some kind of tangenty, like, what we’re supposed to be doing thing?

Trello

Trello.com

So, we’ve talked design, we’ve talked development. Now, it’s time to talk….

Marcus Lillington:
Project management.

Paul Boag:
Well, yeah, essentially. Project management, website manager kind of tooly thing and the tool that has been overwhelmingly recommended by the Boagworld community and I have to say it’s a tool both me and Leigh – have you used this?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And, it’s superb and it is called Trello, check it out; link in the show notes, et cetera, et cetera.

Leigh Howells
Trello has to be good because even Charlie likes it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Even Charlie! So, Charlie is our project manager and he is the most boring stick in the mud, I-don’t-like-change person I’ve ever come….

Leigh Howells
Well that’s why I thought he wouldn’t like it.

Paul Boag:
I love him to bits really.

Leigh Howells
I thought he wouldn’t like it because it’s too easy because he likes JIRA which is….

Paul Boag:
This is why I don’t use Trello because it’s too easy. You know what I’m like with tasks. I am a GTD, obsessive-compulsive kind of person….

Leigh Howells
Yes, you are, yeah.

Paul Boag:
And, Trello is just far too straight-forward.

Leigh Howells
What by putting a list of things in a…

Paul Boag:
So, how would you – how would we – how would you describe Trello?

Marcus Lillington:
A pin board.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, a pin board.

Marcus Lillington:
Kind of like – you could imagine having five whiteboards on the wall and you can go and write something on it and then scrub it out when….

Leigh Howells
Yeah, in columns.

Marcus Lillington:
In columns, yeah. Yeah, I have to say that for me personally there are things about it, which annoy me.

Paul Boag:
Go on what annoys – No, let’s talk about it features first.

Leigh Howells
Get straight into the negative.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So, essentially it’s got – as you say, you create individual boards which are all displayed one next to another, next to another. And, then you stick cards on the board, don’t you?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And, then a card could include a photograph, a link, a bit of text, a checklist of things-to-do and you can drag cards – drag and drop cards from one board to another. So, you can use it for all kinds of things. You can use it as a place to store bits of information, like designs that inspired you, quotes that you love….

Marcus Lillington:
Documents, anything….

Paul Boag:
…anything you…..

Marcus Lillington:
But that’s one of my issues with it is it’s not….

Paul Boag:
See, I told him to wait….

Leigh Howells
Hang on….

Paul Boag:
He can’t wait to start being grumpy….

Leigh Howells
…we’re still on the pros.

Paul Boag:
…again now and rip it apart.

Leigh Howells
It’s flexible; I think that’s the important thing. You can use it for whatever you want.

Paul Boag:
It is. Yes. So, typical – the reasons why a website owner might want to use it is for keeping lists of blog posts that you might want to write, which we used to do, didn’t we at one stage?

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Or, bug tracking of problems on the website, that kind of thing. I wrote a post at one point, of five lists that every website owner should keep and Trello would be perfect for that, link in the show notes.

Leigh Howells
That’s basic bug tracking, not kind of complicated….

Paul Boag:
Oh no, no.

Leigh Howells
Not like scary bug tracking like JIRA.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s the other problem with it. But let’s save the problems.

Leigh Howells
This is more on a nice friendly level, rather than an enterprise….

Paul Boag:
So – yeah, absolutely. And, I think for the vast majority of people it’s perfectly adequate as well. It’s great for collaboration across teams because people can log into it and review it together and – we used to do a daily call, didn’t we, when we went through stuff. And, we went through Trello and we just dragged things over and…

Leigh Howells
Yeah, we were in three different locations and we’d just see all the cards move around and we’d kind of organize ourselves just using the app. It was great.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. And, it’s got iPhone app which was okay, a little bit buggy.

Leigh Howells
I never released it but….

Paul Boag:
Yeah. So, it’s got that if you need it. But, it’s really the web app that’s great about it. So, I think this is a really excellent tool for people that are (a) managing websites. And, I think it is great for project management as well for a distributed team or if you are a freelancer, wanting to keep notes and stuff with your clients, you can use it for that as well. So – and it’s free.

Leigh Howells
Yes, it’s amazing.

Paul Boag:
Which it’s a huge bonus.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s the reason why – yeah, every negative comment is kind of…

Leigh Howells
But it’s free.

Marcus Lillington:
…but it’s fine really.

Leigh Howells
How is it free anyway?

Paul Boag:
By the way, it’s got an Android app as well; I just noticed so.

Leigh Howells
What’s their business model? How do they make money out of this?

Paul Boag:
I don’t know. A very good question. I suspect at some stage they’ll do a pro version.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So, go on then.

Leigh Howells
Shoot it down.

Paul Boag:
How – you’re now going to rip apart this free product that someone has toiled away to produce.

Marcus Lillington:
One thing is, if you want to search on – to find a document related to a project, something like that, it never feels that intuitive or well designed. They – it’s not – it doesn’t feel like a….

Paul Boag:
Is this search you’re talking about now?

Marcus Lillington:
Well, no. Search or going to find something. It’s all fine, it’s there, but it just doesn’t feel like it’s got the right weighting for me and this is a personal thing.

Paul Boag:
What do you mean? I don’t understand.

Leigh Howells
Do you mean because there’s not a dedicated document section? Because it’s on a card somewhere.

Marcus Lillington:
I think it’s kind of like that. Yes, it’s on the card somewhere. And, then on the card you have a little link in the corner….

Leigh Howells
Yeah….

Marcus Lillington:
…and it’s like well surely this should be more important…..

Leigh Howells
It’s right down at the bottom of a long card which is tucked into the right-hand column.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a minor thing. It just always doesn’t fit –because I’m often having to go back and thinking what’s that thing; Charlie will have put it in there. Then I’m like I can’t find it.

Leigh Howells
I know what you mean. Whereas, in Basecamp if you go to, like, a tab that says documents, and you know it’s in there somewhere.

Marcus Lillington:
But that’s wrong as well. That becomes this huge, long list that you can’t find anything on– anyway. But, the main problem I have with Trello – and this is because I need to be kicked up the arse to do things – is it doesn’t force me to do anything like JIRA does.

Paul Boag:
I don’t understand.

Marcus Lillington:
JIRA like – it’s the – the task now belongs to you and until you’ve passed the baton on. It’s a lot more – it’s like the board on the wall.

Leigh Howells
You could ignore it quite happily.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, exactly. And, therefore, I do. And that’s the problem.

Paul Boag:
When we did it, how did we do?

Leigh Howells
Yeah. And that’s because we had a daily call where we always said look at the board!

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
You did.

Paul Boag:
Because you can assign tasks to people.

Leigh Howells
Can you?

Paul Boag:
Yes, because we did.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I think you can.

Paul Boag:
Definitely. You definitely can do that.

Marcus Lillington:
Alright. Well, I think the main problem with it is that you can ignore it.

Paul Boag:
Right. So, what you really need is a secretary.

Marcus Lillington:
Is a secretary. You got that out of your mouth just before I did. I need someone to say “Do that”. But, no, it’s marvelous and it’s free.

Paul Boag:
It is free. Really good, definitely check it out, highly recommend it, one of the best project management e-type organizational planner type thing that’s out there really.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, because I wanted something like this for years and Tom’s Planner is another one and maybe we should cover that another time.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, we ought to.

Marcus Lillington:
This kind of Gant chart view or columnar….

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
…it’s just so much nicer than a big list of stuff.

Leigh Howells
It makes you feel like you’ve got a complete overview of something.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, you can look at it in one go and kind of know what’s going on.

Leigh Howells
…whether it’s a personal project, anything that’s simple or complicated, it is just an overview you feel like you’re getting.

Paul Boag:
That said, I never use it, after saying 7how great it is. But, as I said, that’s because I’m OmniFocus and Evernote and all that kind of stuff. Do you still use it?

Leigh Howells
I’ve got a personal board. It’s a little bit neglected; I must admit.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Leigh Howells
But I still have to use it for various projects.

Paul Boag:
Do you…

Marcus Lillington:
Charlie uses it for projects that I am involved with Charlie.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
So I use it like that.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Other than that no, because it doesn’t…

Paul Boag:
No. Because you don’t use any kind of – you just don’t hold it in your head in a random, weird, freaky way, and then bits drop out every now and again.

Marcus Lillington:
I write a lot of stuff down with pen and paper as we have said before.

Leigh Howells
But I always feel happy when I go into Trello, I don’t know why, it makes me feel happy.

Paul Boag:
I do know what you mean, it’s got something about it.

Leigh Howells
Basecamp makes me feel a little bit kind of anxious. JIRA just makes me feel scared. What’s going to happen now?

Paul Boag:
I am not including a link in the show notes to JIRA.

Leigh Howells
No, no.

Paul Boag:
It’s that terrible.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not that bad.

Paul Boag:
It’s awful.

Marcus Lillington:
No, it’s not.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
Because I was forced to use it, I don’t know, two years ago, when Pete went on holiday and we were in the middle of doing this really techie project, I can’t remember what it was. And it was like, oh shit, I’ve really got to concentrate on this now. And I can see why they like it. After you have forced yourself to learn it and how it all works, it’s like, oh right, yeah, gets it now, because all the stuff I was saying is wrong with Trello, JIRA keeps up with you, you can’t forget anything. It makes sure that stuff is done.

Leigh Howells
That’s why I don’t like it.

Paul Boag:
I have got my own systems, I don’t like people imposing…

Marcus Lillington:
I have got my own systems.

Paul Boag:
I do.

Marcus Lillington:
I have my own systems.

Paul Boag:
And my systems are far more – yeah, anyway.

Marcus Lillington:
What?

Paul Boag:
Far more efficient than JIRA is.

Marcus Lillington:
No. And that’s – do you manage other people in your systems?

Paul Boag:
I could do.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, okay.

Leigh Howells
But you don’t. You just manage Paul.

Paul Boag:
I just – I don’t care about other people, I don’t like other people really. I don’t know why I am part of a company, I want to be a freelancer really. Right, I am – and on that bombshell…

Marcus Lillington:
You’d end up crying.

SoundGecko

SoundGecko Website

Paul Boag:
Well as long as I didn’t end up having to do any of the business side of things. Right; should we move on to our mobile random pick of the week?

Okay, so we come to our final pick of the week which is SoundGecko, which is a iPhone app and is also on Windows mobile phones and coming soon on Android as well.

Marcus Lillington:
This sounded interesting until I looked at it.

Leigh Howells
No, it’s really good. It’s really interesting.

Marcus Lillington:
I know.

Paul Boag:
It’s a great app.

Leigh Howells
It’s talking.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
I just don’t do that.

Paul Boag:
Let’s explain – you see this is what happens, every time we do a pick, you immediately just start commenting on it, without explaining what the app is.

Marcus Lillington:
So people know how the show goes now, that’s…

Paul Boag:
So they have to sit through like three or four minutes worth of waffle before they find out what it is we are talking about.

Leigh Howells
Go on, talk about it, talk about…

Marcus Lillington:
I was giving them a chance to look at it online to look at the website.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, but we are commenting…

Marcus Lillington:
I know, I’m joking.

Paul Boag:
Just don’t try and justify it, right. Soundgecko.com; essentially what this is, is it will allow you as it says on the website to listen to any article or RSS feed on the go. So if you are in the gym, if you are in the car, commuting, any situation where you can’t sit and read, any bit of wasted time, so to speak…

Leigh Howells
It can fill up every gap in your life. I am washing up and I am not multi-tasking. Quick, get Soundgecko going.

Paul Boag:
You can listen to an article, I find it – joke about it all you want because you just rely on me to know all this shit, it’s something – somebody has to learn all this stuff, so I find it invaluable to listen to articles when I don’t have a chance to read them. So it is read back in a …

Marcus Lillington:
What voice does it? Yeah, that was I was going to say.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, this is kind of…

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
But it is pretty damn good. It’s the best one I have ever heard.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, it is. I was kind of – I started using it and thought I was listening to the radio.

Paul Boag:
Have you got it on there? Play it.

Leigh Howells
Yeah, it actually fooled me.

Paul Boag:
Oh, it’s not that good.

Leigh Howells
Well, it is if you are not listening.

Paul Boag:
Have you got it on there?

Leigh Howells
Yeah, I think I have. Hang on.

Paul Boag:
Pressure’s on. So you do that. So…

Marcus Lillington:
How much did it cost?

Paul Boag:
It’s only a few pence I think.

Leigh Howells
69p.

Marcus Lillington:
69, blimey.

Paul Boag:
So my workflow with this works something along this line, so I am going around, I am reading my RSS feeds on Google, whatever else, Google Reader that being. I find something that I like. I then send it to Pocket, right, which is another app that I think…
[Background Noise]

Paul Boag:
I mean it’s never going to be, okay you can stop it now. It’s never going to be as good as a real person, but that’s not bad, Marcus?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not bad at all.

Paul Boag:
Marcus was making faces.

Leigh Howells
He was. Wincing. It’s not bad.

Marcus Lillington:
I accept your argument, Paul that you are asked to listen to all this shit. So I mean all this – this information and filter it for this show and other such things, so cool.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I mean essentially as I was explaining, what I do is if I find something cool…

Marcus Lillington:
Send it to Pocket.

Paul Boag:
I send it to Pocket and then what I have done in SoundGecko is go in and added the RSS feed of my Pocket stuff so that every new one I add gets automatically converted and added to SoundGecko, so then I can listen to it at any point and then take it off on Pocket, which works pretty well. Their business model was a bit weird, so 69 pence or whatever it is for the actual app.

Leigh Howells
Wasn’t it free, actually I need to check that. Because they…

Paul Boag:
I think it’s free actually.

Leigh Howells
I think it’s free because you make – the model is buying extra RSS feeds or something.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but – which is fundamentally flawed because there is a …

Leigh Howells
Don’t ruin their whole business model – Paul…

Paul Boag:
But in my case it is only one RSS feed because it’s just my Pocket feed.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
But you could put in other ones if you wish to, I won’t explain why…

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
…it’s flawed but I am sure you can work it out without a lot of thought. Yeah, I am trying. But a great, great app, it is, it says free on the app store.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Doesn’t cost you anything, great way of keeping up with stuff where – when you’re driving to and from the office et cetera, et cetera. I can’t listen to them for long. I find it a bit, it gets to me after a while.

Leigh Howells
I don’t think I could listen in the car.

Paul Boag:
It gets to me after a while.

Leigh Howells
I could listen whilst I was working at my desk but car would be a bit annoying. Really loud…

Paul Boag:
I can listen to it in the car, but I can’t…

Leigh Howells
…all the speakers.

Marcus Lillington:
I can’t listen to anything when I am working.

Paul Boag:
No, I can.

Leigh Howells
Depends on what you are doing. Any kind of writing or thinking…

Marcus Lillington:
No, I can’t….

Leigh Howells
…designing.

Marcus Lillington:
I can’t do music, I can’t do – somebody saying things to me, I will be just like listening.

Paul Boag:
Well, a lot of people sit listening to this while they work…

Marcus Lillington:
I know, I don’t know how they do it.

Leigh Howells
I don’t know why anybody listens to anyone.

Marcus Lillington:
I really – yes, I can’t multitask like that, maybe that’s because I am old.

Paul Boag:
Could well be.

Leigh Howells
Actually, if I am mowing the lawn.

Marcus Lillington:
I have listened to it whilst mowing the lawn. See I just want to hear the birds tweeting and amongst the sound of the engine going…

Leigh Howells
I was going to say, all you’ll hear is [sound effect]. Unless you’ve got a push mower… which you may have.

Marcus Lillington:
No I haven’t got a push mower.

Leigh Howells
The sound of the birds, as you chop them to pieces.

Paul Boag:
I just think you are out of date and you are not willing to commit 110% to this industry we work in. As it says…

Marcus Lillington:
I have to say, Paul, you are probably right.

Paul Boag:
As it says on the website, multitask like a boss.

Leigh Howells
I am not sure it’s a good thing.

Paul Boag:
No I am not.

Leigh Howells
This whole multitasking thing, I have got into the state of mind now I think like mowing the lawn, I could be doing something else at the same time. But where does all that – obviously you don’t think that Marcus but…

Paul Boag:
But you do feel – I feel the pressure…

Leigh Howells
I feel pressured now and that’s not good.

Marcus Lillington:
I am fighting against it.

Paul Boag:
You are right.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s, I think that our lives are too hectic as it is, frankly.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
I have a little dream – I have a dream of basically get finding somewhere in the next 5 to 10 years of my life where, I am not as hectic as I am now.

Leigh Howells
Marcus wants to retire in a seaside cottage.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t want to retire.

Paul Boag:
With an old fire.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t want to retire. I would like to just be at half the speed that I am now.

Leigh Howells
You want to live – yeah – live a more relaxed lifestyle so…

Marcus Lillington:
So ensuring I have got my earphones in while I am going to waste time mowing the lawn. That’s wrong.

Leigh Howells
It could just be that mowing the lawn is really boring as is vacuuming. So rather than going, I am vacuuming, and your brain can actually listen to something.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, there are occasions.

Marcus Lillington:
I want to spend my time thinking.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Which we do think is – I do agree with you and I do have commutes into work where I don’t do anything on and I just…

Marcus Lillington:
I hardly ever put the radio on or anything in the car, it’s just that’s my thinking time, it’s great.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
But I do – I mean we would not survive as a company if we all took that attitude.

Marcus Lillington:
I have already agreed…

Paul Boag:
So it’s difficult. I think one other – sorry, one other thing I want to say about SoundGecko before we wrap up is it isn’t just RSS feeds, you can email Gecko and link as well.

Leigh Howells
Oh right, I’d forgotten that.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Which I think is quite – and there is a Chrome extension as well. So you can add stuff that way.

Leigh Howells
Right.

Paul Boag:
So it’s not just RSS feeds if you are not RSS – I don’t think many of us are big a RSS consumer anymore.

Leigh Howells
No.

Paul Boag:
So there are other ways to get stuff into it as well, which is cool. Okay, I think that about wraps this up for this week. This must be the longest show ever in the universe…

Marcus Lillington:
Quite a long one, yeah.

Paul Boag:
But thanks very much for listening, I really enjoyed this week. Oh, what’s he going to play?

[sound effect]

Paul Boag:
That is so painful.

Marcus Lillington:
That was different though.

Leigh Howells
It said good bye. You recognized it is different.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells
So you have a built in a kind of chirp filter, you are going to be able to read them soon aren’t you…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah exactly, I know what you are saying.

Paul Boag:
So we have got to, I suppose, endure one of Marcus’ jokes before we can go.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, here we go. This is still – we are still – I am going back on to the Boagworld app, where – which you can now download from the app store.

Leigh Howells
What a marvelous app that is.

Marcus Lillington:
A man walks into a pub,

Paul Boag:
Ouch.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s a good start for a joke, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Nobody appreciates…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, that’s so funny.

Leigh Howells
Paul made a sub joke, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, a sub joke. A man walks into a pub with his border collie, he goes up to the barman and says I bet you £10 that my dog can do metalwork. The barman doesn’t believe him and says, what are you on about? But the man insists, no really, I bet you £20, my dog can do metalwork. The barman still doesn’t believe him and tries to ignore him. The man insists again, okay, I bet you £50 my dog can do metalwork. The barman is fed up by this time and says look, don’t be stupid, there is no way your dog can do metalwork, I will bet you £100. The man smiled at the barman and he suddenly turns around, picks up his dog by the tail and start to violently swing the dog around and around his head, he lets go and slams the dog down on the counter then the dog made a bolt for the door.

Leigh Howells
That’s so not funny but I am still laughing.

Paul Boag:
I refuse to laugh – I refuse to laugh at anything that involves animal cruelty.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s imaginary animal cruelty.

Paul Boag:
One of our clients is Blue Cross, how can you possibly…

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a play on words, he made a bolt for the door.

Leigh Howells
Yeah but he did get swung around by the tail.

Paul Boag:
He got swung around by and slammed on the table, but that’s – you are encouraging…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah but he wouldn’t have made a bolt for the door.

Paul Boag:
…you are encouraging it.

Leigh Howells
But it was in cartoon form, wasn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah it was in cartoon form in my head. You may have been thinking gruesome…

Paul Boag:
I saw a really gruesome imagery. I am traumatized with that joke and I really feel that you set bad example for other people and really I think we are going to have to end the podcast on that because – on that bombshell because it’s just, it’s like …

Marcus Lillington:
We’re Top Gear are we now, we end on a bombshell.

Paul Boag:
Alan Partridge started that. Jeremy Clarkson ripped off Alan Partridge

Marcus Lillington:
He stole it.

Leigh Howells
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Because on the Alan Partridge show, it always ended on a bombshell.

Leigh Howells
And now Clarkson has made it his own and now you are taking it off and …

Paul Boag:
I do think – I am thinking about it actually. This is a massive tangent. We should probably stop the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Keep going, keep going, keep going.

Paul Boag:
Wouldn’t it be cool – wouldn’t it be cool if we did Top Gear type challenges for the Boagworld podcasts?

Marcus Lillington:
Fantastic.

Leigh Howells
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Would that mean driving across Europe and stuff like that?

Paul Boag:
No, not like that.

Marcus Lillington:
Quick we have to look at three websites in different ways: you do yours on the phone, I will do mine on the desktop and we’ll see who’s faster.

Paul Boag:
I bet our listeners could come up with good web design related to Top Gear challenges.

Leigh Howells
That will be hilarious.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I need something new in my life.

Paul Boag:
I quite like that idea. If you have got any suggestions of what we could do then please do post them at boagworld.com/ – no…

Leigh Howells
Should I chirp at this point?

Paul Boag:
…season4, find the show notes posted there, you can work it out. Bye.

Marcus Lillington:
Bye.

Leigh Howells
Good bye.

[Music]

  • http://twitter.com/joshcoventry Joshua Coventry

    This was an interesting one, especially the discussion about Coda vs. Espresso vs. Dreamweaver. Years ago I used to use Dreamweaver – I used to use it when it was a Macromedia product, and also Adobe GoLive. Then I got into strict hand coding and chose BBEdit, and then found CSSEdit for CSS editing (this later became Espresso, but I still think CSSEdit as a standalone app is better). The problem for me with Dreamweaver was the amount of bloat, features I didn’t use. I find it much easier to edit with BBEdit and CSSEdit – and the live preview/edit feature in CSSEdit with X-Rays is invaluable.

  • aurel

    How do you get the rrs feeds from pocket to soundgecko. when I try http://getpocket.com/users/USERNAME/feed/all it sayis that it does not point to rss feeds. I liked the logic behind it so I wanted to try it.
    Thanks

  • http://jeffbridgforth.com Jeff Bridgforth

    Paul, You can do code collapsing in Coda. You click on the colored bar to the left of the line number in the code and it will collapse the children code under it. Works in both HTML and CSS (and others I am sure).

  • http://twitter.com/StephenFJohnson Stephen Johnson

    Sublime Text 2

  • http://twitter.com/paulkent_biz Paul Kent

    Something that might work on radio (I mean podcast) regarding a Top Gear style feature is the ‘Cool Wall’ applied to web sites or design/dev techniques? Maybe you could create an interactive cool wall on the site – but that’s probably overkill ;-)

  • http://twitter.com/palamidas Marko Srdoč

    I use Susy (sass/compass) grids in my projects (right now I’m playing around with a new sass based layout system called Salsa).
    What I wanted to say is that I don’t see the point in using grids with different width columns. They make sense if you define every column of your content as one column of your grid system (e.g. if you have the main content and two sidebars then you use a 3 column layout with asymmetric grids).

  • Designer023

    I use Espresso at the moment, but still find myself using Dreamweaver for editing smaller projects, specifically because I can click on the preview and the code jumps to the relevant place. I did try Coda before Espresso and found it a bit awkward. I probably didn’t give it a chance and the things you have said about it make me think that I need to try it out again.

  • http://twitter.com/kaceykaso Kacey Coughlin

    It’s all about Coda 2! Though, I still use Dreamweaver at work from time to time BUT I DONT USE THE WYSIWYG!! ;)

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