Boagworld Podcast s05e08

Web & Digital Advice

Digital and web advice from Headscape and the addled brain of Paul Boag... tell me more

Paul Boag Posted by: Paul Boag On Thursday, 7th March, 2013

Mumbling about mobile

This week on the most lushish web design podcast: One size fits none, nine questions about your mobile strategy and how do you hold your mobile phone?

Season 5:
The estimated time to read this article is 52 minutes
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Paul Boag:
This week on the most luscious web design podcast: ‘One Size Fits None’, nine questions about your mobile strategy and how do you hold your mobile phone.

Paul Boag: Hello welcome to Boagworld.com, the podcast for all those involved in designing, developing and running websites on a daily basis. I haven’t said that for a while so I thought it was time again. Hello, Marcus.

Marcus Lillington:
Hello, Paul.

Paul Boag:
How are you?

Marcus Lillington:
I am all right.

Paul Boag:
I am hysterical.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I know you are. So am I if I thought about it.

Paul Boag:
Yes, to be honest, this kind of sums up the fundamental difference between us, right. We’re both totally and utterly overwhelmed with work, right. Your approach to the problem is just to ignore it entirely, right? I sat down last night and realized I mapped out everything that I have to do between now and April 15.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, but I can’t do that. Well neither can you, this is the thing, one of those days when you go like, I am going to do this today, you will wake up and go, I don’t feel like working today, I am going to lie in bed and…

Paul Boag:
But I can’t.

Marcus Lillington:
Therefore your plan is ruined.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I know but I honestly cannot get away with doing that, otherwise I am not going to get it done. I mean I will move stuff around I suspect. I’ll go, I can’t face doing that today, so I’ll swap it for this tomorrow but I haven’t got time to do that unfortunately.

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
Although a big – to be fair and that sounds really melodramatic, big chunk of that is actually holiday.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly.

Paul Boag:
Between now and April.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve got so much holidays, it’s getting in the way.

Paul Boag:
It’s mind, it’s true but even though my holiday I am working. I am doing a workshop for Smashing Magazine on the 5th of April.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s not even next month, that is the month after.

Paul Boag:
Yes, 5th of April, but that’s how far ahead I have to plan.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, because you’re so busy on a holiday.

Paul Boag:
Because I’m just so, no, it’s not just holiday I am going to Florida too. That’s not holiday.

Marcus Lillington:
You will not have any sympathy from anyone. All right, working hard and…

Paul Boag:
I am recording videos for Treehouse. That is work. They’re paying us.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. That’s like me when I used to have to fiddle around in the studio, oh I’m working, playing with music and stuff,

Paul Boag:
Yes, but you were again paid at that stage and you were fiddling around the studio. You were living off your rich days. Your superstar days.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I guess that’s true. So recording videos?

Paul Boag:
Do you know Treehouse?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
And you know that Treehouse basically do video tutorial stuff?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Well traditionally it’s all been learn HTML or learn how-to-do iOS coding.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, yes.

Paul Boag:
But they are now branching out to business stuff.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
They are doing what is embarrassingly called their Superstar Stream. Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Superstar

Paul Boag:
Superstar, so American, isn’t it.

Marcus Lillington:
Who else – what other superstars have they got?

Paul Boag:
I am the only one.

Marcus Lillington:
Well you are the only superstar.

Paul Boag:
No, I am just the first because they thought Paul will whore himself out for anything, we’ll get him on to do it. I’m talking about running a web design agency. I am going out there to record in their fancy, proper studios and things they have.

Marcus Lillington:
I know about that stuff. Shall I come too?

Paul Boag:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
We’ll leave Chris behind on his own

Paul Boag:
No, he’ll cry. He’ll cry and cry and cry.

Marcus Lillington:
Abandon all projects.

Paul Boag:
It’s consultancy work, isn’t it we’re really busy with.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, loads of it.

Paul Boag:
Which is superb. Can’t complain about that, can you? [laughter] You can get hysterical however. Yes, there you go, all very exciting.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. Have I got anything else to add? It’s my birthday this week.

Paul Boag:
Yes. What 53, 52?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, that’s it. Nearly as old as you, Paul.

Paul Boag:
We all know that I’m the youngster of our little merry band.

Marcus Lillington:
I am 46 on Thursday.

Paul Boag:
My word.

Marcus Lillington:
But today isn’t the day I think you think it is.

Paul Boag:
No, this is – you were 46 a week ago today.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, there you go. So, I think it’s 26th February but it is not.

Paul Boag:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
So yes, happy birthday to me.

Paul Boag:
Yes. You’re going to do anything fancy? No, you’re coming into the work.

Marcus Lillington:
I am going to the pub, I’ll bring some cakes.

Paul Boag:
The trouble is it’s going to be hard to get anybody in the bar that day. That’s the funny bit.

Marcus Lillington:
We’ve got enough. Why didn’t you come in, Paul ? I’m too busy…

Paul Boag:
No, I just don’t like you that much.

Marcus Lillington:
Could do.

Paul Boag:
What?

Marcus Lillington:
Come in. And go to the pub.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I could do but…

Marcus Lillington:
And eat cake.

Paul Boag:
I am actually…

Marcus Lillington:
And sing happy birthday to me.

Paul Boag:
I am actually truthful when I say that I don’t care. I’m not the slightest bit interested. How many birthdays of yours have I had to endure? Far too many, over a decade’s worth of them.

Marcus Lillington:
Easily, yes.

Paul Boag:
If you think of it like that and if you go back to Townpages probably 15 years.

Marcus Lillington:
I think when we met I was 31, 15 years ago.

Paul Boag:
That’s incredible. And you look more handsome today than you did then.

Marcus Lillington:
Certainly had a lot more dark hair.

Paul Boag:
You did?

Marcus Lillington:
But there you go.

Paul Boag:
But there was something else really important I needed to tell the listener.

Marcus Lillington:
You haven’t got any hair and I’ve got grey hair.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Well if I grew my hair, I would have grey hair.

Marcus Lillington:
All right, okay.

Paul Boag:
It’s only because it short that you can’t see the grey.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
I am as grey as you. Believe it or not. No, maybe not quite. I’ve got badger strips, white down the side and black at what’s left of the top.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
No. I have something important to tell the listener.

Marcus Lillington:
And what’s that?

Paul Boag:
Which is that this is the penultimate episode of Season 5.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, basically because Paul is going on holiday.

Paul Boag:
Arse to you.

Marcus Lillington:
True though, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
No. It’s not just holiday, it’s always these very important things that I am doing.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Next week’s show would be the last one of Season 5. Then we’re going to kickoff Season 6 on the week beginning the 15th of April and in Season 6, we are going to just have a open Q&A time. That is going to be the format of Season 6. It will be questions and answers, well more questions and probably some rambling. So if you have any questions you’d like us to cover then please email them to me at [email protected] Audio files are particularly liked. I can’t get people recording audio. It’s really weird

Marcus Lillington:
We used to do this.

Paul Boag:
Well that’s because we’ve only got three people left now.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. It’s just a statistical thing.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
If we had five listeners.

Paul Boag:
Yes, we’ll be right.

Marcus Lillington:
We’d get one every now and again.

Paul Boag:
But because we’ve only got three, it doesn’t work.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
There you go that’s basically it for the introduction. I’ve just realized that we forgot to stream this week’s live.

Marcus Lillington:
Were we supposed to?

Paul Boag:
I was intending to, yes, but I completely forget. I’m beyond caring, I apologize.

Marcus Lillington:
There are more things on our minds at the moment.

Paul Boag:
Which are just so important basically.

Marcus Lillington:
You are a superstar.

Paul Boag:
I am.

One size fits none

One site fits none

This article on Cognition argues against posts that suggest there is only one approach to a particular problem.

Right, we have what known in the trade as web design new stories to discuss.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Paul Boag:
That’s the technical term for them

Marcus Lillington:
Web design new stories.

Paul Boag:
Or blog posts.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
The first one – you’re going to like this week’s actually. None of them are too geeky for you. And this first one in particular you’re really going to like.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Because it’s all about process and how we organize ourselves as designers.

Marcus Lillington:
I do like this.

Paul Boag:
It’s from the Happy Cog site.

Marcus Lillington:
Right.

Paul Boag:
It’s a good post. It’s called ‘One size fits none’. There is a little bit of a backlash at the moment against all of these posts that say this is the way you should do things. Everybody should use style tiles or everybody should do prototypes or everybody should do, this and that. This post which was…

Marcus Lillington:
I do have to ask you who it’s by, Paul.

Paul Boag:
This post was submitted by Paul Kent in the comments. I am not mentioning the author’s name.

Marcus Lillington:
The author is Yesenia Perez-Cruz.

Paul Boag:
I think I’ve met her actually.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Paul Boag:
Now I am looking at the picture. Yes, I have I am pretty sure I met her when I was at How To Design, in Washington.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Paul Boag:
That’s really, really weird

Marcus Lillington:
What does she do at Happy Cog.

Paul Boag:
She is a creative lead if I remember right, but I might just have totally made that up.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Anyway.

Marcus Lillington:
Making up, that’s what we do well.

Paul Boag:
Yes, so Paul Kent submitted this story as something we should cover. He was saying about how he is sick of everybody essentially saying, this is the way you should do things. This post says the way you should do things is by not doing things the way people say you should do things.

Marcus Lillington:
Really, that doesn’t make sense.

Paul Boag:
No. Well essentially she is telling us what she is saying not a one size fits all thing, which we have long since practiced. Its one of those great posts from Happy Cog where you can read through it and either go, yes that’s great, I’ve learned from that, I suddenly feel this new freedom or in our case, you read it and go, phew, we’ve been doing it right all along because if Happy Cog say we’re doing it right then we must be. It’s true.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, all this process stuff.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
It should go into your process library and you should pull your processes out of the library when you require them.

Paul Boag:
She says her way of putting it is that it should be a collection of interchangeable parts. Yes. You’ve got things like prototypes, style tiles, mood boards, full page comps, which are all things that you can draw upon as is Photoshop, HTML, designing in the browser, prototyping paper sketches. They are all tools that you can call on as and when you need them. That doesn’t just apply to those kinds of tool, but also communication methods like whether you use the phone or Basecamp or JIRA or in person meetings, they are all part of an arsenal. It’s the way that she describes it that we can draw upon.

And that we have to be adaptable basically. If there isn’t the right artifact for the job then don’t use it, use another approach. Don’t get kind of stuck in this mentality of this is the way we do things.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I’ve been a bit guilty of this in the past. We used to do a lot of card sorting. Card sorting occasionally does make sense but we used to kind of like we do card sorting.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So we’re going to do card sorting and then you come and spend a lot of the client’s budget setting these things up and going that wasn’t really that helpful.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
She then goes on in the article after establishing this basic principle of you need this arsenal that you draw upon, to then say how do you decide.

Marcus Lillington:
I prefer my more pacifist library approach rather than an arsenal.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but this is Americans we’re talking about.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
They like to blow things up, don’t they? Yes, exactly. Okay. She then goes on how do you pick your weapon? She doesn’t say that at all. How do you pick the most appropriate tool for the job? She basically splits it down into two elements, project related stuff and client related stuff.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
From the project side, she asks questions like, how well developed is their brand. This is a really good one because if their brand is really well developed and really full thought through, do you really need to do things like style tiles and mood boards. Can you skip that phase? We’ve had an example of this early, very recently with a client that we’re working with where they’ve got a very well established brand. They’ve got some great print work that really is very easy to interpret and bring online straight away. So mood boards almost an irrelevance, why bother with them.

Marcus Lillington:
Some style guides are superb.

Paul Boag:
Yes, really.

Marcus Lillington:
You know they deal with all the things that you would deal within a mood board. So yes absolutely.

Paul Boag:
That’s one question. Another question she has got is, how condensed are the timelines. Have you got time to do all this fancy stuff or do you just need to get something out quick and fast.

Marcus Lillington:
Well in addition to that is what’s the budget for the project as well.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Because if you got a very tight budget then you need to think about the processes from that point of view. Some take a lot longer than others.

Paul Boag:
Yes and sometimes you’ve got to think as well about the return on investment. Doing user testing maybe very useful and very good but it’s just the cost can’t be justified for this particular project.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
And then her last kind of project related question is to what extent does the client want to engage. Some clients are not people that want to be extensively engaged with the project. Then she gets into clients in a lot more detail. She starts talking about does the client have any internal processes in place because if they do we should adapt to that. If they are a base camp user, we should be a base camp user. If they have very email orientated, we should be very email orientated. Ultimately it’s a customer service that we provide and we should accommodate the way the client works.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. Many times clients are nervous, particularly in initial projects, they are nervous they’ve made the right choice.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So adapting to their processes makes a lot of sense actually. I like that. I’ve learned something that I shall use from this particular article.

Paul Boag:
Cool. We do that already.

Marcus Lillington:
Can I go now.

Paul Boag:
Yes go on. We do that already don’t we? I do that.

Marcus Lillington:
The thought of actually saying this is something we will do.

Paul Boag:
All right.

Marcus Lillington:
If you’re stating earlier on…

Paul Boag:
You’ve just seen a potential sales thing, haven’t you? Basically

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
To say we were…

Marcus Lillington:
Adapting to your processes

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
Because we’re happy to do that.

Paul Boag:
Yes, completely and we do do that but we probably just don’t make a big deal of the fact that we do that. What would the feedback cycle be like? Are there lots of clients, stakeholders that need to be involved if or is it just one person that you need to approval from? That’s going to affect how you go about doing things.

Marcus Lillington:
True.

Paul Boag:
How does your client like to communicate which kind of relates back to the other point. Is there a member of the client team that you can work with directly? Makes a huge difference being able to sit down with someone, one individual, make decisions and it moves things forward. But that’s not always the case. It’s a really good article, I highly recommend checking it out because it’s just so pragmatic. All these years since we first started this podcast, I’ve always taken this really pragmatic approach to things. Nothing is written in stone, nothing is black and white, you have to adapt to situations and this post just screams that. Check it out, really good one, I highly recommend it.

Nine questions about your mobile strategy

Nine questions every CMO should ask their mobile strategist

Econsultancy have posted some excellent questions you should be asking about your mobile strategy.

Marcus Lillington:
What’s next, Paul?

Paul Boag:
A blog post, what do you think? That’s what we do.

Marcus Lillington:
We do.

Paul Boag:
We do news stories.

Marcus Lillington:
What now?

Paul Boag:
This one is from econsultancy.com

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Again it’s kind of a business thing rather than a design thing or developing thing but really interesting.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t like that website.

Paul Boag:
They’ve got awful website. They are in the process of redesigning it.

Marcus Lillington:
They need to.

Paul Boag:
I know. It’s the reading experience. Just horrendous especially with this massive big bar, they have across the bottom. Have you got this big bar?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Join free as a bronze member and get all this stuff. It completely takes up half the flipping screen.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes and I am being blind now because I am so old.

Paul Boag:
Tiny text.

Marcus Lillington:
Tiny, tiny text.

Paul Boag:
Tiny text, yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I can’t be bothered to read, just tell me about it.

Paul Boag:
This post is aimed at marketing people. If you are listening to this and you are a marketing person or a client.

Marcus Lillington:
CMO.

Paul Boag:
CMO, such an arsey phrase, isn’t it? If you are a marketing person, if you are responsible for digital strategy that kind of stuff, this is great for you. If you are not that person then this is the kind of thing you show to your client or your boss. See now I accidentally rolled over an ad on the website and it’s now expanding out to take up half the blooming screen, go away. Here we go.

Essentially what this is, is it’s talking about your mobile strategy and what you or your clients mobile strategy is and the questions that they need to start asking. It’s interesting econsultancy, I liked writing for them but some of their posts are absolute arse because they occasionally have – they like posts that are full of lots of unsubstantiated and backed up stats where they just make up stuff. In the very first line

Marcus Lillington:
Like a newspaper.

Paul Boag:
Yes. A recent study shows a tiny 14% of CMOs are happy with their mobile strategy but they don’t seem to at any point reference what that study is.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, you cannot say…

Paul Boag:
Just pulled out of your butt.

Marcus Lillington:
… stuff like that without citing it.

Paul Boag:
Yes, so there we are, very right. Apparently only 14% of CMOs are happy with their mobile strategy, everybody else is unhappy. It’s probably not far from the truth to be honest because a lot of organizations are all over the place with mobile at the moment. What this does is, the post suggests nine questions that you should be asking yourself about your mobile strategy. The first one is where are we basically. Where are you currently at in terms of your mobile strategy?

For a start, is there anybody actually anyone within your organization that has a somebody responsible for mobile? Apparently according to, this one is referenced, only one in three businesses have a dedicated mobile person. I’m impressed that it’s as high as one in three, for a lot of organizations.

Who is responsible for your mobile strategy, who does that lie with and what are they doing about it? That’s the first question. Is the existing activity that you are doing online optimized for mobile? In the UK for example, smartphone penetration apparently, because they like their figures…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Is running at 64% with 80% of those being online, using it online

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
The question is, do these mobile viewers, what do they get when they hit your website. Are they getting a flash website with flash elements that can’t be seen on mobile devices?

Marcus Lillington:
Do people still have flash websites?

Paul Boag:
I think there are. Yes, a surprising number of them are still around.

Marcus Lillington:
Blimey.

Paul Boag:
Is your design responsive, what’s your page load time like, all obvious stuff we would have thought, except for this one which I have never considered. Does your Facebook application work properly on mobile devices? That’s a good one for those that use Facebook heavily. Haven’t considered that one. Carrying on from that point, are your social efforts on mobile optimized? Again stats throwing around, 20% of mobile users never visit the Facebook website and that’s even more when it comes to Twitter or Instagram.

And is the content that you are posting to these websites actually compatible with mobile devices? So if you post a link to Facebook and that link is not optimized for mobile devices, then it’s a waste of time and it is true. The number of times that I am looking through things that people have posted to Twitter or Facebook, you click on the link and you just get this blank page because it won’t load properly. Then you got to think about your email as well, more facts here for you, personal email is opened on mobiles 49% of the time.

No, I misread that. It’s opened on mobile by 49% of UK phone owners and that rises to 70% of smartphone owners. It’s true. Lot of my email I am opening on the mobile device rather than opening on the desktop. Again a lot of the email that you open looks shit, you can’t read it for whatever reasons.

Marcus Lillington:
Especially from the kind of company that would have a CMO.

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely. HTML emails often look awful on mobile devices. Checking that out, making sure it looks good on mobile, that’s why I just love MailChimp’s WYSIWYG newsletter builder because it does all that for you. It’s a no-brainer, link in the show notes for that I guess. That’s another – how do your emails look on mobile devices? Is your offline marketing staff working with online things? This is talking about how increasingly people are, so you see something on the TV…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
You look it up on your mobile.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
You see an advert in the newspaper, you look it up on your mobile. If you are again advertising URLs that look shit when you then look them up on the mobile, you’ve got a big problem with this.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So it’s really important and people are sitting watching TV while holding a mobile phone in their hands. I certainly do that now; I have my mobile phone sitting next to me when I watch TV or my iPad sitting next to me.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s what iPads are for, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
That is their only purpose.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
For checking stuff out that you’ve seen on the tele.

Paul Boag:
Yes. I mean obviously.

Marcus Lillington:
And very useful for that.

Paul Boag:
Obviously the econsultancy article has got a lot of stats to back up this kind of information.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Then it gets into are you thinking mobile first? Now you can have arguments about whether you should be thinking content first or mobile first but whatever it’s the basic principle that if you think mobile first then you’re going to strip your content right back and you’re going to really focus on your message, really focus on what you’re thinking about. Then the post gets into things like making your content channel agnostic. This is such an important thing. It’s really funny. I heard Tom Coates talk about this in 1923 at some conference about how we need to stop producing content that is designed specifically for the medium that it’s in because you don’t know it’s going to be viewed in that medium any more.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
You might produce something for a website that’s viewed in an RSS feed or is scraped and appeared in a mobile device. It might be being viewed on Flipboard for example or all kinds of different ways. We need to start creating content that is channel agnostic as they put it in marketing speak. Then they talk a bit about points of purchase which isn’t particularly interesting to me but you can check it out if you want to. Then the crux of the question what will we need to do after all of that is fixed. In another words once you’ve done the basics of creating a responsive site, making your content agnostic in each channel, thinking mobile first and doing all that stuff what’s the next step. What’s your long-term mobile strategy?

That’s really the crux of me including this post, is you guys out there need to start seriously, seriously thinking about mobile. Again we’ve started talking about that as far back as 2006 when Cameron Moll wrote his brilliant ebook on mobile and it’s been true ever since. We’ve warned you people if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long time we’ve warned you time and time again sort out your mobile and if you haven’t done it now, then…

Marcus Lillington:
It’s too late.

Paul Boag:
You’re dead to us, we don’t care. You’ve blown it. If you haven’t – if you’re not on top of it by now then scream and run around tearing your hair out and then obviously hire Headscape. There we go, nine questions, in fact we don’t want you – no, don’t hire us – if you haven’t sorted it by now we don’t want to know you. Don’t come to us, groveling at this stage, it’s too late. Sorry, Marcus.

Marcus Lillington:
Stop.

Paul Boag:
We do want to hear from you, we will forgive you for your heinous crimes. Right, talking about mobile, I’ve got more mobile stuff to talk about. Should we move on?

Marcus Lillington:
Let’s move on.

How do you hold your mobile?

How do you hold your mobile?

UX matters has done some excellent research on how people hold mobile devices and the impact this has on design.

Paul Boag:
No doubt I bored every designer.

Marcus Lillington:
With all that CMO.

Paul Boag:
With all that CMO marketing speak.

Marcus Lillington:
Now this is more interesting.

Paul Boag:
Now this is definitely something that you want to be paying attention to. If you are mobile designer, web designer.

Marcus Lillington:
Again, don’t like the website though.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I know this is icky. It’s horrible. Interestingly I just tried to zoom in the text to make it bigable.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s a lovely word that is, bigable.

Paul Boag:
I actually just made it even harder to read. UXmatters this is, uxmatters.com. If you are involved in any kind of mobile development from responsive design to iOS applications, whatever it is, you need to read this.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not responsive.

Paul Boag:
No. Talking about stats and statistics here is some proper research.

Marcus Lillington:
Alright, okay.

Paul Boag:
This is proper. This is somebody that’s gone out and done it himself. Now who suggested this? It’s Anna.

Marcus Lillington:
Anna Debenham.

Paul Boag:
Anna Debenham suggested this.

Marcus Lillington:
By Steven Huber.

Paul Boag:
Huber.

Marcus Lillington:
What a great name.

Paul Boag:
That is a cool name, isn’t it? You can imagine when he was at university at college, Huber, it would have been wouldn’t it, in drunken moments. Anyway…

Marcus Lillington:
Maybe he still is…

Paul Boag:
He could be.

Marcus Lillington:
Maybe he is 75.

Paul Boag:
He could be either. I don’t know. He is probably again, he is probably massively well known. We need to start referring to these people because I’ve just shown my massive ignorance.

Marcus Lillington:
Can’t know everyone.

Paul Boag:
No, it is true. He has done a piece of research where he was interested in a very simple but really quite important thing, how do people hold their mobile phones?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, good point.

Paul Boag:
Because we – we started making so many assumptions about how people hold their devices or not thought about it at all but nobody’s actually done any research into this.

Marcus Lillington:
Have Apple published anything on this?

Paul Boag:
I don’t think so. No.

Marcus Lillington:
No, probably not. Far too secret.

Paul Boag:
Yes, probably. So him and some few other researchers, by that read his mates I am guessing, made 1,333 observations of people using mobile devices on the street, in airports, at bus stops, in cafes, on trains, which is really interesting and essentially he has broken down what they did and how they were using the device.

He outlines certain limitations on the data that he has collected, for example I mean he doesn’t actually say this is one of the limitations, but one of the things that sprung to my mind is whether people use it differently sitting in their home because these are all very public active environments where people are doing lots of other things. As we know lot of the time when people are surfing the web, they are doing it at home in front of the TV as you so beautifully put it earlier. But nonetheless really good research, really appreciate them doing it and fascinating to read.

First of all he breaks down what people were doing. So there was a lot of people that were listening to music or were actually using it as a phone, in which case I think 22% would be making voice calls when you saw them using the phone, and 18% were engaged in what he called passive activities, like listening to audio or watching a video. So there is no real interaction going on there, so you can’t learn anything from them.

But of the ones that remain, now this is where things are really interesting: 49% were using it one handed, right? 36% was where – it was he calls cradled, so you’re holding it with one hand – well holding it with both hands and interacting with it with one hand, which strikes me a really weird. I couldn’t use the device like that. It’s kind of – I can’t demonstrate it, check the article, it’s the most awkward way of holding a phone to me.

Marcus Lillington:
Do you use your thumbs? Hardly.

Paul Boag:
Lot of people do, yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Hardly at – well, that’s one of the reasons why because it’s like a – covers three letters on an iPhone screen.

Paul Boag:
Because you got fat fingers.

Marcus Lillington:
I have got very fat thumbs in particular, but I still do sometimes, just if I am doing – say if I am dialing a number in, that would probably be.

Paul Boag:
See I can’t do it at all, because I after I severed the tendon in my right hand, my thumb doesn’t have enough flexibility into it.

Marcus Lillington:
But I do tend to hold it, and just point with my full –.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, now actually, as people to do that, that’s – if people that hold it with two hands, is 15%, anyway, but – sorry, I’m jumping around – but if you look at the people that use it like we do, which is the kind of, effectively using it with two hands, or what he calls it cradling in two hands.

Marcus Lillington:
Cradling in two hands, yes.

Paul Boag:
And using a finger on the screen; out of the – so cradling in two hands is 36% of people of do that.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Out of those 36%, only 28% of those do the kind of pecking with one finger thing, which is what I do and you do.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
This is really weird, fascinating. So he goes through and looks the one handed approach, which is by far the most dominant of them at 49%. And people using it one handed is 67% of those were right handed – right thumb was used on the screen, 33% was left thumb, which is quite interesting, because that’s higher than the percentage of people are left handed. So, but the way he justified it, because only I think one in ten people are left handed. Yeah, about 10%.

Marcus Lillington:
I use mine left handed.

Paul Boag:
You use yours left handed?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So you will peck at the screen with your left hand? No –

Marcus Lillington:
Finger.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, but occasionally I’ll use my right thumb.

Paul Boag:
Ah, so you use your right thumb? So you wouldn’t use it with –

Marcus Lillington:
That was a bit weird.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s right thumb, or left –

Paul Boag:
So that’s really interesting. So you actually are going against him. He was saying a lot of the reason why he thinks that only – that so quite a large proportion relative to the number of people left handed use a device in their left hand, is because they’re using their right hand for other things.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Like holding a carrier bag or whatever.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s why I think and if I am holding the phone it has – as a phone it has to be to my right ear, because I can’t hear properly in my left.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
Or I probably can, but I just don’t think I can, but anyway that’s by the way – so if it’s just like quickly doing something while I’m maybe on the phone, looking at something that would be right thumb.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Because you’re doing something.

Marcus Lillington:
But it I’m typing something it has to be left.

Paul Boag:
Because you’re using your dominant hand for other things.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Yes, that makes sense.

Marcus Lillington:
But I write with my left hand, which is why I’d use my left forefinger.

Paul Boag:
Yes. So yes, lots of different – and then there is the two-handed approach as well, where 90% of that – you know this is where you’ve got two thumbs approach here.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
The two thumbs approach consisted of only 15% of people. I am not surprised at that.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a bit weird.

Paul Boag:
Yes, it’s supposed to be…

Marcus Lillington:
I think it goes back to the old keyboard.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, we had a key where actually pressy buttons, which were in many ways are easier to use than an on screen keyboard, because you can feel it rather than –

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
You have to look at the screen.

Paul Boag:
But what was – I mean I think there’s couple of – all of those stats are very confusing and overwhelming.

Marcus Lillington:
Why do I care?

Paul Boag:
There were two segments in this article that grabbed my attention. First was the fact that people shift, right? So although they are showing, I would say 67% of people do this and 33% do that and all of the rest of it, while actually people are shifting all the time, from one handed to two handed to their position on the screen and lots of kinds of stuff. So that was quite interesting to me, that people moved around quite a lot.

And the other thing that was really interesting is he has gone through and there were illustrations in the piece that actually show how easy different areas are to reach on the screen dependent on how you choose to hold it, right. So if you are holding it with one hand and using your thumb to navigate on it, then actually there is a relatively small area of that screen that you can actually reach for.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, that’s a part of it.

Paul Boag:
Which is why people shift around a lot. So it’s really interesting, but it actually – it left me going – none – it left me none the wiser, right? Because a) people are shifting their hands around anyway, and b) you know, people have got so many different positions that they use the device in, how the hell do you design for this?

Marcus Lillington:
I think the one thing you’d possibly take from it, if you’ve got a very simple application, if you put everything in the bottom third of the screen then…

Paul Boag:
All the controls.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, everyone can use it no matter whether they are pointer, or they’re a thumber or whatever.

Paul Boag:
But the other aspect to that which he picks up in the article is that actually that’s not true. If you are a thumber, you can’t – getting to the bottom right corner of the screen –

Marcus Lillington:
It’s quite hard, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Is really quite hard.

Marcus Lillington:
What about the middle then?

Paul Boag:
And also the other problem is, is that with some of the positions your hand is actually covering part of the screen. So button in the bottom right hand corner can often be covered up. So the long and the short of it is: you’re stuffed.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes just go ahead do anything, people will deal with it, because people have brains.

Paul Boag:
They do have brains. I think what it showed…

Marcus Lillington:
That reminds me so much – sorry I’ve got to – of the meeting that we had with a client who shall remain anonymous. When Leigh piped up, ‘Well, you wouldn’t put pull or push on a car door handle would you’ when he was challenged about some of his usability ideas. It didn’t go down that well…

Paul Boag:
I think what it did show me, from looking at all these different hand positioning – just generally, all right – that our normal behavior, as a designer of websites originally, is not particularly well suited to mobile devices and this creates problem with responsive design. So if you look at all of the positioning on the screens, probably the weakest area is the very top of the user interface, right? Very top of the view port should I say, the screen.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Which, if you think about the way most websites are designed, and how they then collapse down into a responsive site, that is where your main navigation is often placed: the very top of the screen.

Marcus Lillington:
You can just go like that with your thumb and you pull it.

Paul Boag:
You can; well it depends.

Marcus Lillington:
I am sorry, sorry dear listener I was just dragging the screen here.

Paul Boag:
Dragging the screen down, yes, if there is enough of a website above it to drag the screen down, if not then it springs back doesn’t it? If you think about it, if you are at the top of the page.

Marcus Lillington:
I am sorry, I mean push away not drag down, you would push the page away to get to that.

Paul Boag:
No, but then if you push the page away, then the navigation goes off the top of the screen.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh yeah, sorry.

Paul Boag:
So there is actually, yes there is actually a bit of an issue there.

Marcus Lillington:
Use with your finger.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but it is worth considering, isn’t that?

Marcus Lillington:
But how do you type URL into the top of an iPhone screen then, with your thumb?

Paul Boag:
Well you don’t, you have to shift positions.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, yes.

Paul Boag:
But it is worth considering, and so we’re thinking about. I am not – these kinds of issues.

Marcus Lillington:
Can’t see how you’d get around that one anyway. The one with the navigation is like, ‘Well, what shall we do? Have it tethered?’

Paul Boag:
You could do, why not? Have it tethered to the bottom.

Marcus Lillington:
Covering the content all the way down the page, how annoying would that be?

Paul Boag:
That’s true. But you can have it tethered until you start scrolling. There are ways and means. Or you can do – I mean things like, I think it’s Andy Clarke has got an example of this on his website, let me just check. I think on his site he has a compressed navigation, you know the little –

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
The little jobby; no, actually he hasn’t done what I he thought done that. He almost has.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
So he has got a little kind of – his navigation is under a little icon, right? You click on the icon and it expands out, and you can see the different options on the side, which is great and he does it really lovelily.

Marcus Lillington:
Lovelily, yes.

Paul Boag:
What I thought, is that that little icon was tethered into position.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, okay.

Paul Boag:
So it wouldn’t take up a lot of space in terms of getting in the way or everything else, but it would still be available to you. So, I mean there are ways, there are ways that we can do this with responsive design here, and I think it’s only because people do this kind of research that you begin to think in a little bit more detail about all of this and stop making assumptions.

So I thought it was really an interesting post, definitely worth checking out, thank you Anna for recommending that. Yes, I think she is dead to me now. It’s been so long since that I’ve spoken to her.

Marcus Lillington:
And she does –

Paul Boag:
She does her own podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Her own podcast.

Paul Boag:
What was it called? Unfinished Business?

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t know.

Paul Boag:
Link in the show notes.

Marcus Lillington:
Don’t care.

Paul Boag:
I am going to put a link in the show notes because I like Anna. Admittedly she does it with Andy Clarke I should take a link away. I love you, Andy. Right, we move on to your little segment of the show.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
He says in a patronizing voice.

Marcus Lillington:
And it’s always ‘my little segment of the show’.

Paul Boag:
Yes. You’re the Ringo of this podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
I am the Ringo, am I?

Being English makes you poor

BBC article on how being english makes you poor

Could the language we speak skew our financial decision-making, and does the fact that you’re reading this in English make you less likely than a Mandarin speaker to save for your old age?

Okay, well moving onto the only interesting article on this show today.

Paul Boag:
Yawn. Yeah, yeah, you haven’t even read it.

Marcus Lillington:
No I haven’t read it, I just – I was so taken by the title. This is the title and it’s from the business section of the BBC news site.

Paul Boag:
You branched out to a whole different section. God, you really don’t put any effort into this show at all, do you?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I am the Ringo. Dear oh dear.

Paul Boag:
Yes, get on with it.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s called: Why speaking English Can Make You Poor When You Retire. And that is interesting, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yes, that grabs my attention. That’s a link-bait headline isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I mean reading through the article, it certainly shall we say a different thinking, it’s not what the majority believes.–

Paul Boag:
So it’s bollocks basically –

Marcus Lillington:
But an interestingly thought anyway. I don’t know if it’s bollocks or not, but anyway.

Paul Boag:
So what has this got to do with web design?

Marcus Lillington:
Nothing at all. I did say at the start of this series that I’d do stuff on cricket and things like that and I haven’t anything that at all. I don’t think it’s that far –

Paul Boag:
It’s all right, fortunately, dear listener, we’ve only got one more week of this before we get out of it. Although I suspect people will start submitting weird questions just for you to answer, knowing them.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, please do for next series, yes. Anything to do with guitars, literally anything to do with guitars, cricket, music in general obviously, what else, being a dad, there you go.

Paul Boag:
Is this what you all know about? You’ve now listed everything you know about. None of which has anything to do with your job I noticed.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, people will ask me salesy boring questions of course they will, but what else can we talk about? Yeah, what it was like growing up through the ‘80s and other stuff like that.

Paul Boag:
Anyway.

Marcus Lillington:
Anyway yes right, so could the language we speak skew our financial decision making, and does the fact that you’re reading this in English make you less likely than a Mandarin speaker to save for your old age. Now the thinking of all this is –

Paul Boag:
It’s bollocks.

Marcus Lillington:
The English and French, for example, and there are others on the list down there, Russian, Italian, some Tamil, Gammo, or whatever, they have future tenses.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
And apparently if you have a future tense, you kind of – you’ve dealt with the future and the way you think is the future is another place.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
Whereas languages like Chinese, apparently German – or Mandarin anyway not Chinese – Mandarin, German and Estonian, and other things that I can’t pronounce, don’t; they use the present tense for the future.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
So there isn’t this disconnect, so therefore you think about future as the present so you deal with it, so you’re more likely to have saved for future.

Paul Boag:
That’s bollocks.

Marcus Lillington:
I think it’s absolutely spot on.

Paul Boag:
You liar. This is one of those – see it goes back to this econsultancy statistic.

Marcus Lillington:
Interesting though, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Its un-provable, that’s the thing about it, because there are so many cultural influences involved.

Marcus Lillington:
Interestingly, it’s a Chinese professor that’s come up with this.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So he is probably selling something isn’t he?

Paul Boag:
He almost certainly, it feels just like one of those PR fluff pieces that the BBC do every now and again, and you think: ‘How on earth did…’ Somebody’s put out a press release essentially to promote their new book and the BBC have gone, we got nothing better to post, better post this. That’s – I’m dismissing your story entirely as pointless.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not pointless, this is interesting. And interesting makes the world a better place. If everything was just about boring processes and businessesy stuff then that would make the world really, really dull, wouldn’t it?

Paul Boag:
It would.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I guess.

Marcus Lillington:
And at least this is kind of – it’s a possibility for a chat around the coffee table when you’ve had too much to drink.

Paul Boag:
I mean where our guess is an interesting as it does raise – it raises issues about language and culture and things like that, and I am going to bring it back to web design, because this is a web design podcast. Now I do think there are so many subtleties that influence behavior, that we don’t even bother to consider half the time. You know it’s interesting isn’t it, when, say, we do a multilingual site – a client comes to us and says: ‘Well, we need you to do a multilingual site’. And we go: ‘Ah yes, our content management system can support that’, right? That’s not doing a multilingual site, that’s just having a piece of technology that will support non-western character sets.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s it basically. But then often that’s what they mean.

Paul Boag:
Yes, it is. And they have not put – I am not saying that they are any better because they haven’t put any thought into it either. I just – we’re doing a website at the moment which has got multilingual support and it’s like if I was somebody, if I spoke French for example. If I was French, I’d actually be quite insulted by some of the solutions that obviously Western English-speaking companies come up with where they just vomit a bit of kind of poorly translated text.

It’s like when you get instructions for something which has been built in Japan and then has obviously been just terribly translated. And it just annoys, I actually think you’re better off just having an English version than you are doing a half-arsed job at translation.

Marcus Lillington:
Possibly yes. I am not sure about that one but basically we spend a lot of our time banging the drum about a website needs an editor every version.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Every language version of your site needs an editor full stop.

Paul Boag:
And I think it needs translating in country as well.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. That person has to be native obviously, well maybe doesn’t have to be but certainly…

Paul Boag:
Makes a huge difference.

Marcus Lillington:
On that subject, goes off on a bit of a tangent, again on the BBC.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
I won’t find it now but it’s worth looking for – they have got a video of a guy that speaks 11 languages and he is only 24 or something.

Paul Boag:
My word.

Marcus Lillington:
And it’s all him flipping between Russian and Afrikaans and Mandarin.

Paul Boag:
If I say link in the show notes, are you going to give me the link?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Okay, link in the show notes because that’s worth checking out. That sounds quite incredible.

Marcus Lillington:
So yes, he’d be useful.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
He could be your editor for all of the different languages.

Paul Boag:
No, but the trouble is that’s my point. I don’t think he could be because culturally he is not invested. And that’s why, going back to what this is about, I think it’s more to do – our attitude towards saving and retirement and stuff like that, is not to do with language, I think it’s to do with culture. So I think that some cultures are much more forward thinking than others, much more generational in their approaches.

Marcus Lillington:
Well he makes some – he – got some figures…

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
…further down here that I think you could test quite easily. So in his research paper he says – this is Professor Chen.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
He says that compared to speakers of language which use a future tense, us…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
…speakers of languages with no real future tense are likely to have saved 39% more by the time they retire, I can’t test that, but 24% less likely to smoke. Surely those figures fit. So if German is one of the languages that is –

Paul Boag:
But you’re making the presumption that the only influencing factor on that 24% less likely to smoke is language and it’s not, it’s to do with legislation, it’s to do with cultural attitudes. It’s to do with how…

Marcus Lillington:
I agree but you – comparing Germany and France wouldn’t be a million miles apart for example. I think you could – I’d be interested to know is what I am saying.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I suspect there is no bloody difference. And so it is rubbish.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I suspect there is no difference between the level of percentage of smokers in Germany and France or if there is it’s tiny.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
For example; so you are right, Paul, is where I was going.

Paul Boag:
I am always right. This is the fundamental principle of this show. So yes, it is actually –
it’s funny, isn’t it, you pick an absolutely shit story but there are some interesting elements in it. I have managed to draw some good stuff out of it related to web designing.

Marcus Lillington:
Just because it isn’t right doesn’t make it shit.

Paul Boag:
It creates an interesting conversation. So yes, absolutely. Have you got a joke to wrap us up with?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, this is from – and I keep forgetting it’s from Wizard. And I don’t know if Wizard’s got a real name because…

Paul Boag:
I am sure he or she has got a real name but whether you know it or not.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, they have; I mean I think it’s a she – oh no, this is awful, it’s become…

Paul Boag:
Just so embarrassing.

Marcus Lillington:
Has sent me so many jokes over the years; most of them I can’t repeat but here is…

Paul Boag:
I doubt it’s a she then.

Marcus Lillington:
No, I don’t know. Anyway…

Paul Boag:
Shes tend to be so much nicer than hes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, generally you are not wrong. A man goes into his son’s room to wish him good night, it’s quite a long one by the way.

Paul Boag:
Okay, that’s alright. I’ve got time.

Marcus Lillington:
So sit back.

Paul Boag:
Yes, because I haven’t got much to do.

Marcus Lillington:
His son is having a nightmare. You’ve got to pack your case obviously. The man wakes him and asks –

Paul Boag:
My suntan cream.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly. Asks his son if he is okay. The son replies he is scared because he dreamt that aunty Susie had died. The father assures the son that aunty Susie is fine and sends him to bed. The next day aunty Susie dies. One week later the man goes into his son’s room to wish him goodnight again. His son is having another nightmare and the man wakes – again wakes his son. The son this time says that he had dreamt that granddad had died. The father assures the son that granddad is fine and sends him to bed.

Paul Boag:
We know what’s going to happen now.

Marcus Lillington:
What happens the next day, Paul?

Paul Boag:
Granddad dies.

Marcus Lillington:
You got it.

Paul Boag:
I’m so into this. The tension.

Marcus Lillington:
Another week later.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
The man again goes into his son’s room to wish him goodnight. His son is having another nightmare. The man again wakes his son. The son this time says that he dreamt that dad had died. The father assures the son that he is okay and sends the boy to bed. The man goes to bed but cannot sleep because he is so terrified.

Paul Boag:
Well yeah, you would be.

Marcus Lillington:
The next day the man is scared for his life. He is sure he is going to die. After dressing he drives very cautiously to work, fearful of a collision. He doesn’t eat lunch because he is scared of food poisoning. He avoids everyone and he is sure he will somehow be killed. He jumps at every noise, starts at every movement and hides under his desk. Upon walking in his front door at the end of the day, he finds his wife. Good god, dear, he proclaims. I’ve just had the worst day of my entire life. She responds you think your day was bad? The milkman dropped dead on the doorstep this morning.

Paul Boag:
Oh dear, there’s nothing like a milkman joke. I wonder if that’s like a universal thing or a British thing because again, I mean, milk delivered to your house which you don’t even get any more in the UK.

Marcus Lillington:
Some people you can get it if you want it. But it’s very rare.

Paul Boag:
Much more rare.

Marcus Lillington:
But obviously 50 years ago everyone had their milk – well probably 30 years ago everyone had their milk delivered.

Paul Boag:
And it was when wives stayed at home and looked after the kids and there was always this implication, wasn’t there?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly, yes. He has gone out to work and she is at home and the milkman will come round.

Paul Boag:
And the milkman visits.

Marcus Lillington:
But yes I think we consume vast quantities of milk in comparison to other countries.

Paul Boag:
Really? I suppose our obsession with tea.

Marcus Lillington:
Tea is obviously a big one.

Paul Boag:
And cereal, people don’t do cereals quite like we do, do they?

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t know but I think we do drink a lot of milk. But anyway by the by, let us know – let Paul know, let Paul know.

Paul Boag:
No, I don’t want to know. I don’t care. It’s interesting because it’s cultural again.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
So it goes back to what we were saying earlier, that joke might be meaningless to other people. Let Marcus know at [email protected] whether you get that joke.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. Actually send me more jokes, please.

Paul Boag:
Yes, that’s good.

Marcus Lillington:
Always like new jokes.

Paul Boag:
So we need some stories for next week, peeps.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Because although I’ve discovered, I don’t know why I ask on the podcast because all I need to do is ask on Twitter and I get this flood all of a sudden. So I don’t care, don’t send me any. I’ll ask on Twitter. But you can start thinking of questions and you can email them to me at [email protected] See you next week for the last Season 5 before I go on my month’s long holiday apparently. Bye.

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