Support, web fonts and speculative design

This week on your favourite web design podcast we discuss providing support, using web fonts and return to the subject of speculative design.

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Paul Boag:
This week on your favorite web design podcast we discuss support, using web fonts, and return to the subject of speculative design.

Paul Boag:
So, we’re doing a podcast. Hurray.

Marcus Lillington:
About speculative design.

Paul Boag:
Design.

Marcus Lillington:
The world of tomorrow.

Paul Boag:
I don’t know where that came from. I’m so sorry. So, we’re not really in a kind of professional mood today. Because today is our barbeque day, isn’t it? It’s our Headscape barbeque day.

Leigh Howells:
This is the one day of the year we can enjoy ourselves.

Paul Boag:
Oh, the rest of the time we have to work. Hello Leigh.

Marcus Lillington:
Misery.

Leigh Howells:
Hello.

Marcus Lillington:
Hello there

Leigh Howells:
Hi Paul and Marcus.

Paul Boag:
I warn you that both Marcus and Leigh have been drinking alcohol.

Leigh Howells:
Hello, everybody.

Marcus Lillington:
It hasn’t affected me …

Leigh Howells:
I love you. Paul and Marcus.

Marcus Lillington:
But it has affected Leigh …

Paul Boag:
I on the other hand…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
… am on my fifth can of coke, and so therefore I’m a little high on caffeine.

Marcus Lillington:
I need to find the questions for today. You carry on chaps.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, I’m just on a meat high, because I don’t normally eat meat.

Paul Boag:
That’s a lot of meat.

Leigh Howells:
Me and Marcus went meat mad.

Marcus Lillington:
I did.

Leigh Howells:
Meat mental.

Marcus Lillington:
Meat mental.

Paul Boag:
Then we got onto the subject of vegetarians and…

Leigh Howells:
We did.

Paul Boag:
And education – it got quite heavy, the conversation, didn’t it?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. Yeah, you were actually lecturing I think.

Paul Boag:
Don’t blame me. You started it.

Leigh Howells:
He stood on a box and started lecturing us about what kids today eat.

Paul Boag:
Well, shut up. You know I’m nothing if not opinionated about every subject, whether I’m qualified to talk about it or not.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, but you do it with authority, that’s the key, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yeah

Leigh Howells:
Do it with authority and everyone nods.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, everyone thinks you must know what you’re talking about…

Leigh Howells:
I think he is talking bullshit. I think he is.

Paul Boag:
… and then when – when – there is nothing worse than – so how did you come to that conclusion? I don’t know, it’s my opinion. I made it up. So there we go.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ll have to remember that. God! I’m drinking this lemon drink that’s just – so sharp.

Paul Boag:
How does it go?

Leigh Howells:
It has many lemons in it, has it?

Marcus Lillington:
Oh God, yeah.

Leigh Howells:
What’s it called? Did you buy it like that?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s called still lemonade but it’s not, it’s lemon juice.

Leigh Howells:
Okay. It’s squeezed lemon – is it actually squeezed lemon?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Wish I had gone for the orange.

Paul Boag:
So it’s too hot today.

Leigh Howells:
It is…

Paul Boag:
It is.

Marcus Lillington:
You’re not allowed to say that.

Leigh Howells:
You can’t moan.

Paul Boag:
It is.

Marcus Lillington:
You’re not allowed to say that.

Leigh Howells:
No, no. No.

Paul Boag:
I am moaning.

Leigh Howells:
The sun comes out, oh it’s too hot.

Paul Boag:
It is too hot.

Leigh Howells:
I am –

Marcus Lillington:
It won’t be tomorrow.

Leigh Howells:
I am perspiring.

Marcus Lillington:
Go back to normal, cold and wet.

Paul Boag:
We need to have a blooming good thunderstorm, because it’s humid and horrible.

Leigh Howells:
Can I just say, I have a new found respect for this show.

Paul Boag:
Have you? Why is that?

Leigh Howells:
Because I’ve been listening to lots of podcasts recently, those which proclaim to be design or web design podcasts, the amount of waffle that goes on is unbelievable.

Paul Boag:
What more than us?

Leigh Howells:
This show is full of facts. Facts and knowledge and you know, useful things.

Paul Boag:
Aww.

Marcus Lillington:
Isn’t that nice?

Paul Boag:
Isn’t he sweet.

Leigh Howells:
But I didn’t realize this until you know, about Wednesday last week.

Paul Boag:
Well I thought – I thought we were the most waffle-y.

Leigh Howells:
No, some can get through 40 minutes and say nothing at all. Just nothing. It’s like, they should have – I think all –

Marcus Lillington:
But they’re all very entertaining these other ones aren’t they?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. They are very entertaining. I’m not going to mention any podcasts by name.

Paul Boag:
Oh go on.

Leigh Howells:
As a person who works alone in my office, you know, they’re like people, voices coming into my head.

Paul Boag:
Voices in your head.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
It’s like company, so they can talk about whatever.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
But as a podcast that actually allows you to learn things, this is quite useful.

Paul Boag:
I’m shocked.

Leigh Howells:
I have learned things.

Paul Boag:
That’s a ringing endorsement. You’ve learned things.

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
That’s really quite worrying me, that you’re learning things.

Leigh Howells:
Not much, but you know. Not much, but still 500% more than others.

Paul Boag:
Wow.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, wow.

Paul Boag:
I’m gobsmacked. I always presume that everybody else had lots of content and were boring and that we had no content, but we’re entertaining, that was always how I saw it.

Leigh Howells:
There are some with more content, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, but they’re boring.

Leigh Howells:
Well, a bit techie – the techie ones…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
I think the really techie ones have a lot of techie content. Well it sounds like content, it could be nonsense for all I know.

Paul Boag:
So you listen to these nonsense things.

Marcus Lillington:
You listen to what developer type podcasts?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Just to – is it just to hear someone’s voice?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, it sounds really clever.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, this must be really good. There could be loads of people going, they’re talking garbage. You know, this is five years out of date, I wouldn’t know, but sounds good.

Paul Boag:
Well that’s funny, because I don’t really listen to any web design podcasts. I can’t stomach it.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t listen to any podcasts. There you go.

Leigh Howells:
Well, I didn’t used to, I kind of started to more and more.

Paul Boag:
How do you do it while you’re working?

Leigh Howells:
It depends on what I’m doing.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
You know, if I have to actually think.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Leigh Howells:
I can’t listen to anything.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Leigh Howells:
But if it’s design, which is a different part of the brain.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. No, I could do if I was doing design.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, that …

Paul Boag:
What about when you’re doing wireframing? Can you do it when you’re wireframing?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You can? So I can.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. If you’re doing the kind of humdrummy stuff; if you really have to repeat decisions …

Paul Boag:
Yeah, I guess so. All the kind of moving it around and yeah that kind of stuff. Yeah. Fair enough.

Marcus Lillington:
I feel really tired now.

Leigh Howells:
It’s nap time.

Paul Boag:
It is so nap time.

Marcus Lillington:
And it’s hot and sweaty.

Paul Boag:
I’ve got – I can’t work out whether I’m sweating because of the heat …

Marcus Lillington:
Or the meat.

Paul Boag:
… or the amount of meat.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, it could be meat sweat.

Paul Boag:
It could be either and it could be…

Marcus Lillington:
Heat or meat.

Paul Boag:
… meat sleepiness as well. If you eat too much meat, makes you go sleepy.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s true.

Paul Boag:
It’s a fact, I read it on the internet. That’s my in-justification for everything at the moment.

Marcus Lillington:
Your in-justification.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, I read it on the Internet; it must be true. Talking of things that I’ve read on the Internet.

Leigh Howells:
What else have you heard on the – read on the Internet?

Paul Boag:
I don’t know I tried to – I’m trying to make a transition there into the next segment of the show and then realized we’re not doing posts about things on the Internet. We are doing questions. So that transition didn’t work at all.

Leigh Howells:
They kind of –

Paul Boag:
Because I forgot what season we’re recording, which undermines it somewhat. So should we just move on into questions anyway?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, why not? Or we could think of something else to talk about first.

Paul Boag:
Well, let’s face it. The moving into questions …

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah

Paul Boag:
… doesn’t stop you in interjecting…

Marcus Lillington:
No, I’m not doing it any more.

Paul Boag:
… waffle anyway. So we might as well at least move on.

Marcus Lillington:
I was on the wrong screen that’s why, but now I’m on the right screen to start now.

Paul Boag:
I’ve got the questions.

Leigh Howells:
You have sent me the made the questions as well.

Paul Boag:
So we’re ready to go.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
That’s the first time I’ve ever done that, sent the questions.

Leigh Howells:
But I don’t like that because now it’s like I should have actually read them and prepared something, and thought about it.

How can I provide out of hours support?

From client:
“Is there someone who normally reads the email or checks the messages over the weekend? My concern is that if something happens to our website after hours (overnight, weekends, holidays) and there’s nobody checking the email and phone messages, then what can be done to bring it to your attention?”

Note: This isn’t related to hosting, but more if they mess something up in their CMS, install a bad module that causes errors, get hacked, etc.

For me, the real answer is NO, I’m with my family after-hours and don’t wish to be disturbed, wait until Monday… but obviously I can’t say that to the client. I started to think about implementing some sort of emergency-website-design-support phone#/email address and charge some enormous hourly rate, but that would still leave me tethered to my phone 24/7 and would leave me paranoid that I might actually get a call especially if I’m physically not be able to take care of it right away like if I’m at a playground with my kids. “Sorry kids, get off the swings, we need to go home because I have to fix a website”.

Robert Kruse

Marcus Lillington:
I have to apologize for accidentally chopping off the end of the last page.

Paul Boag:
Well, I thought – I presume you will find a good place to cut it. Will you not?

Marcus Lillington:
Maybe, I don’t know.

Paul Boag:
Are you just going to randomly stop it.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m covering all bases by apologizing.

Paul Boag:
What if you know do cut it at a good point and then your apology will seem pointless. And you might think well we find a place to start recording, but I’m going to keep bringing up the subject – the fact that you cut it.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
To ruin it all.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s fine.

Leigh Howells:
There was another good thing about this podcast.

Paul Boag:
Oh for crying out loud.

Leigh Howells:
Another good thing.

Paul Boag:
The whole point of cutting is that we then move on to the next section, we don’t just carry on where we got to.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah well, the thing that I like is the thing that would let you cut it more easily; adverts, people advertising.

Paul Boag:
Oh it gets on my nerves.

Leigh Howells:
I know, it’s –

Paul Boag:
I mean, I can see why – well no I can’t see why I’m doing, because I look at all of the other web design podcasts that I’ve encountered and they’re all pretty much done by people like us, people that run an agency or freelancers or stuff like that. So that’s where they make their money from, right. And so the podcast is essentially a marketing tool to get people to come and work with you. And so advertising, to be honest, doesn’t really earn you a lot of cash in comparison to that. So why bother?

Marcus Lillington:
We used to do it, didn’t we?

Paul Boag:
Yeah but –

Marcus Lillington:
And we just sort of thought –

Paul Boag:
Yeah what was the point? We were –

Leigh Howells:
Well suppose the big shows …

Paul Boag:
We were making a few 100 quid a week or a month or whatever it was – I can’t even remember what it was but it wasn’t a lot of money. It didn’t seem worth it.

Leigh Howells:
I suppose the dedicated places like TWiT and things, you know, they …

Paul Boag:
Oh, that’s different, because that’s how they make that money.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah because then – yeah. Today’s show is bought you by cachefly, C-A-C-H-E-L-Y.com, I have heard that so many times now.

Paul Boag:
I can tell.

Leigh Howells:
Do I get a royalty for that?

Paul Boag:
No, you don’t. You don’t get paid for that. Unfortunately that’s free advertising for cachefly. Shows it works mind.

Leigh Howells:
But I know those kind of advertising – yes services which they actually use. So that acts like an endorsement and that could be quite …

Paul Boag:
Yeah

Leigh Howells:
… potentially useful, but you just don’t know. You don’t know.

Paul Boag:
It’s all – I’m not a great fan of it, really, the advertising thing. Because I used to have banner ads and stuff on Boagworld.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
And it just looked – made it look messy and it was like I went through a stage of thinking oh, if we have advertising it makes us look more important and the – you know…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
… the advertisers are willing to spend money with us. And then I thought – so I got rid of them.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. It’s just hassle.

Paul Boag:
It was just hassle, absolutely.

Leigh Howells:
You should have a banner saying this site does not have banners. We’re above that.

Paul Boag:
I do – I do a – I’ve got pretty close to that, because I do get multiple requests probably per day.

Leigh Howells:
We cannot take advertising.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, and I just have a copy and paste email that I send out pretty much. Right, okay let’s move on to important things like questions from our listeners. Now this first question is a really interesting one, because it’s an email that I received through and it’s possibly the most confusing and badly written – well, no it’s not badly written at all, but it’s written as an email rather than a nice little conversation or – you know a nice question that you can assert to a podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Right.

Paul Boag:
And I sat down and thought shall I rewrite this in a way that’s easy for Marcus to say on the show.

Marcus Lillington:
And you thought, no.

Paul Boag:
I thought no, obviously.

Marcus Lillington:
This is raw.

Paul Boag:
So Marcus would you like to try and see if you can make a coherent question out of this?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not going to happen, but I will try.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, go for it.

Marcus Lillington:
This is from Robert Kruse, spelt with a K, interestingly.

Paul Boag:
That’s so you don’t get confused with Tom.

Marcus Lillington:
Maybe they don’t think that Robert would help with that?

Leigh Howells:
Could be Kruse.

Marcus Lillington:
Robert Kruse. Anyway this is there is lots of it. Let me read, so right this is him writing. From the client.

Paul Boag:
So this is what his client has said to him.

Marcus Lillington:
Is there someone who normally reads the a mail.

Leigh Howells:
A mail?

Marcus Lillington:
The email or checks the messages over the weekend. My concern is that if something happens to our website after hours overnight, weekends, holidays and there is nobody checking the email and the phone messages, then what can be done to bring it to up to your attention or is that the end of …?

Paul Boag:
That’s the end of what the client was saying.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, right. So this is – Robert is now saying no, this isn’t related to hosting. But more if they mess something up in the CMS, install a bad module that causes errors, get hacked etcetera. Then he says, for me the real answer is no.

Paul Boag:
I totally respect what he now goes on to say

Marcus Lillington:
I’m going to say it full stop, move on.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
I thought this was you, Paul. I thought you were saying this but

Paul Boag:
No, no this is him. He is still going on

Marcus Lillington:
I’m with my family after hours and don’t wish to be disturbed

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Hell yeah

Marcus Lillington:
Wait until Monday. But obviously I can’t say that to the clients …

Paul Boag:
Why?

Marcus Lillington:
… why not, anyway let me finish. I started to think about implementing some sort of emergency website design support phone number/e-mail address and charge some enormous hourly rate.

Paul Boag:
I like this guy.

Marcus Lillington:
But that would – but that would still leave me tethered to my phone 24/7 and would leave me paranoid that I might actually get a call especially if I’m physically not able to take care of it right away like if I’m at the playground with my kids, so the kids get off the swings we need to go home because I have to fix a website.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Really good question actually. And this is – this is kind of for me comes down to what kind of business are you building. If you are – and it sounds like he is like we are, which is it’s a lifestyle business. Then you are not going to want to spend your weekends doing this kind of stuff.

Marcus Lillington:
I’d be interested to know when he is having this conversation with the client. If it’s when the start, I don’t know negotiating a contract …

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
… which is when you should …

Paul Boag:
Tell them whatever they want to hear.

Marcus Lillington:
No, this is when you should have this conversation and you say I don’t – I do office hours support and you make it clear.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
And then if they got an issue with it, you have to try and work something out or you walk away or you can take it on. But as you say …

Paul Boag:
It’s got to be your choice. You can do whatever you chose to.

Marcus Lillington:
I guess if you’re on your – if you’re just single guy on your own, why not? As long as you get paid handsomely

Paul Boag:
I will mean why not if you’re a single guy as in no family, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
But he is a – yeah, it sort of seems have no kids that kind of – a few responsibilities then you might think yourself well if I can maybe charge double my rates then why not. But yeah if you got other things that are more important, then you just say no.

Paul Boag:
I’ll have to say, I think that the key here is the bit he put in note. Note this is not related to hosting, but more messing up something if they mess up something with the CMS; let’s talk about module or course arrows get hacked etcetera. And for me that’s the key is that Headscape I don’t – we do it with some clients, provide an extra level support, but generally speaking we business hours by default isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
The hosting company will solve a lot of problems for you. They will reboot the server if you need to or do anything like that. So you don’t need to do that kind of stuff as you say. In terms of basically if you turn around to them and say and say look no, we’re not going to do out of hours support, but you know, now we get into the realms of probability, doesn’t it? How likely is this to happen? Well, if they mess up something with the CMS, don’t do anything over the weekend with the CMS basically …

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, don’t install modules.

Paul Boag:
… don’t install modules over the weekend, install them in business hours when you know that I’ll be available. So the only one you really down to is getting hacked and to be frank if you get hacked that could be any time day or night, it could be Christmas day, it could be when you’re on the toilet, it could be when you are in the air, but it’s such a small probability if it’s set-up right that really…

Leigh Howells:
I suppose at the very least you could educate them on how to put at some kind of host holding page which says site down for maintenance just to cover it, so it doesn’t look broken.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
There is alternative – there is the thing that we and they probably will have constant access to our emails, we’re always looking at, I’m always looking at my really looking at my emails over Sunday lunch. I might choose to ignore 99% of it.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, that’s different.

Marcus Lillington:
But if something major came through, then I probably or we would probably mobilize to try and fix it.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, I mean the approach we take is we try not to unless there is specific examples where we do support contracts, but generally speaking our position is well, we only provide business hours support, but informally if something goes wrong over the weekend, we will do our best.

Marcus Lillington:
Chances are somebody will pick it up, but we can’t guarantee it basically.

Paul Boag:
Yeah and that would be the approach I take here, is I wouldn’t have a formalized arrangement, but I would say look I will do my best if I’m near a computer, if I can, I will certainly go and do my best to fix it. And I think that’s really the best that you can offer. Here goes the tractor.

Leigh Howells:
I mean, it’s sounding – you want to sound helpful like you’re not just sort of brushing it aside or putting concerns aside, but that you will endeavor to do something. I suppose if you’re a one man band, the pressure might be on to sort of say you can help out wherever however you can. But if you can’t actually however …

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I think you better of being honest, I mean the other aspect here is you got to sit down with them and say okay, well how business critical is it. Let’s say you do get hacked on a Saturday afternoon, if your website is an ecommerce website and you make the majority of your money over the weekend and it’s a big sales, then yes that is a big issue.

Marcus Lillington:
Then you would sort it out up front in my view, because as a business you know that, so you would need.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely. And it might be that you find a partner that does provide that. I mean for – we know of companies that would provide that kind of support and go to them and they provide that first level of support, but to be honest I don’t know if our website went down over the weekend and weren’t fixed till Monday, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. I think a lot of times clients get into this that they over egg the risk involved in it.

Marcus Lillington:
And it might be the time when Coca Cola calls.

Paul Boag:
Yeah and I think you’ve got to – what you’ve got to do is talk to them about weighing up the real risk compared to the cost associated with it. And the chances are they ain’t going to want to do it when they actually think it through properly. So hopefully that answers his question.

Marcus Lillington:
You think so.

Paul Boag:
I think that was a bloody good answer. Well done us.

Marcus Lillington:
Surprising.

Paul Boag:
We are amazing.

Marcus Lillington:
Facts again, Leigh.

Paul Boag:
Facts.

Leigh Howells:
Knowledge and experience all rolled up into a friendly happy podcast.

Paul Boag:
We are damn good. Let’s move on to our next question, see if we can stun the listener with yet more insight in this amazing web design podcast.

Do web fonts cause a performance problem?

I was recently told by an experienced designer only use system fonts in the main body text ie anything that’s not a heading or stand out text otherwise the page rendering time is a lot slower and it can be problematic on different systems/browsers. I’ve noticed a number of good quality sites including your own that do use non system fonts for all text which is now making me want to do the same, what is the best practice?

Steve Newman

So Steve Newman next.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Steve says …

Paul Boag:
What’s quite good about Steve? Nothing to take the mickey out of. He hasn’t done an audio question, so we can’t be rude about his accent. His name is very normal. We can’t mock him. Is that good or bad? I think that’s bad, it takes the fun out of the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
You’re not being very creative, Mr. Creative Director.

Paul Boag:
People expect – since when have I been a Creative Director. Long time since I have that title.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s only because you changed it.

Paul Boag:
Well, yeah because it’s not a relevant title.

Leigh Howells:
Who are you now?

Paul Boag:
I seem to introduce myself as a web strategist. It sounds so arsey it’s untrue.

Leigh Howells:
Have you got rid of the polymath bit?

Paul Boag:
No, no I still – I put up my Twitter profile. It’s just a posh way of saying jack of all trades and master of none.

Leigh Howells:
Pretentious.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, absolutely. You could talk; you’re just as pretentious as me.

Leigh Howells:
Not at all.

Paul Boag:
You’re.

Leigh Howells:
No.

Paul Boag:
What do you describe your job as then?

Leigh Howells:
Various things.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, go on and give me one.

Leigh Howells:
I don’t know. Designer.

Paul Boag:
Bullshit. You’re as much a designer as I am now.

Leigh Howells:
Well, I have to list many things because I do many things.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, you’re a polymath.

Leigh Howells:
I just well – I can’t say that. I want to say it, but you’ve use that word.

Paul Boag:
I have, I know.

Marcus Lillington:
Children, children.

Paul Boag:
It’s not strictly truth because …

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve got to see what he says …

Paul Boag:
Shut up.

Marcus Lillington:
… because it doesn’t say polymath is not that.

Paul Boag:
Polymath is – is this renaissance man basically which we’re not because we’re generally …

Marcus Lillington:
A person of wide range in knowledge or learning.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, there we go.

Marcus Lillington:
Wide range.

Paul Boag:
That’s me. I’m a polymath. I know something about everything. It’s just that the facts I know are not correct.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. Shall we get on with this. Oh yeah there is a question …

Paul Boag:
Steve, we can’t be rude about Steve, because Steve is too normal.

Leigh Howells:
Shows your polymath mathematic…

Paul Boag:
I demonstrate knowledge on whatever the subject is, it could have been about quantum physics and I will be able to tell you.

Leigh Howells:
Try this humble question of web design.

Paul Boag:
I can do that. Definitive, authoritative answer.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
No one will question it.

Marcus Lillington:
Many itatives.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, go on read it.

Marcus Lillington:
I was recently told by an experienced designer only use system fonts in the main body text, i.e. anything that’s not a heading or stand out text, otherwise the page rendering time is a lot slower and it can be problematic on different systems/browsers. I’ve noticed a number of good quality sites including your own that do not use non – that do use non-system fonts for all texts, which is now making me want to do the same. What is the best practice?

Paul Boag:
Well, I could give the definitive answer here, but I’m sure I need to give Leigh a chance.

Leigh Howells:
Well, obviously the definitive answer is whatever he thinks. I’ve got a tendency to still think system fonts are the best option for body content.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Leigh Howells:
I don’t know why I think like that.

Paul Boag:
No, it’s interesting you say that because Dan often moans about your excessive use of web fonts.

Leigh Howells:
That is usually many weights of one font.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, because the argument – okay, the argument goes like this, that if you use a non-standard system font, it needs downloading. And that can get quite big to download. So, I don’t think it’s not a performance problem as far as I know in terms of rendering it, it’s not a render time problem, it’s a download problem. And when as you do – if you have a font with multiple weights, each of those weights are an independent font, they all need downloading, it slows down your site. So it’s kind of minimizing the number of fonts that you use more than anything.

Leigh Howells:
But you could just have one font and use it for everything, well that’d be bad.

Paul Boag:
Well, I don’t think it would, no.

Leigh Howells:
I’m not sure whether this is a problem, I think it’s more on Windows machines, because I use a font for the body content on my site and I’m sure on Windows it doesn’t look anyway near as crisp and nice.

Paul Boag:
No, no but that’s a different question again. That’s a different …

Leigh Howells:
That’s to do with things I kind of know about like sub pixel rendering and stuff like that don’t really quite understand, you never talk about it with confidence. But I think the normal body Verdana or Arial for the main text probably wouldn’t have that kind of problem, because it’s …

Paul Boag:
You’ve just perfectly demonstrated what you do wrong, right. You should have just gone said, yes, that’s to do with sub pixel rendering. And said it with absolute confidence; no one would have contradicted it.

Leigh Howells:
But I know there is somebody out there who knows better than me and I assume that.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, but there is one person out there – there is one person that knows better than you.

Leigh Howells:
But that person will come and he will comment and I’ll feel silly.

Paul Boag:
The other five listeners will all think you’re really clever and – it says you got to think the majority are going to be impressed by it. You need to read a book, I’m reading at the moment, but …

Leigh Howells:
Bullshit for Beginners.

Paul Boag:
Seth Godin’s latest book the Icarus Deception talks all about this. Talks about basically you need to do your art without worrying about people criticizing you, art being bullshit as far as I read it.

Leigh Howells:
That’s why I do it and then I get Dan moaning at me the entire time, whatever I do, but Dan just moan.

Paul Boag:
Dan moans badly.

Leigh Howells:
Dan just moans. Moany, moany Dan.

Paul Boag:
He’s shouting downstairs now. Dan will be up here in a minute, then you’re in trouble then. So, yes I – yes, you’re right, it’s kind of two issues. What you’ve just raised is the issue of rendering fonts in an aesthetically nice way that is readable, right. So yes there is a problem with that, you do need to check some fonts are much better rendering over different operating systems than others are. But that’s not the question he is asking here. This one is about rendering performance and whether it slows down.

Leigh Howells:
Slower and problematic, depends what you mean by problematic.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, I mean I would feel for me the big problem is the more fonts you download, the move variation with the font, slower it will be, but you got to balance out with I want to make it look pretty.

Leigh Howells:
I did read something about this because there is some browsers when they’re downloading the fonts you’re still getting a busy kind of progress, which for use of perception makes them believe that the page is much slower, even though it might still be doing that in the browser, but they’re not seeing any kind of busy indicator…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
…but that’s a perception thing.

Paul Boag:
That is a perception issue there.

Leigh Howells:
And there is also the fact that fonts tend to change themselves, you get the base font then it renders over the top and that’s a bit eugh…

Paul Boag:
Yeah. It’s a fine line to walk, isn’t it? I mean, I think it’s an opinion based thing.

Leigh Howells:
Probably.

Paul Boag:
Really it is what you like and what is relevant to you. I mean I’m quite happy with what I’ve done on Boagworld. It’s a nice readable font, it’s not as wide as, I find like with in terms of sans-serif fonts, your system fonts are fairly limited. You got Arial that is a really kind of quite narrow font and then you got the other is with Verdana which is a bit wide and there is nothing actually in the middle of those.

Leigh Howells:
That’s true.

Paul Boag:
So that’s why I kind of felt this desire to introduce my own font into it because I was really concerned with the legibility and readability. So that’s why I’ve taken the approach I have. But I only use two – one font and two weights I think.

Leigh Howells:
Oh it’s Museo.

Paul Boag:
Museo, I have Museo 900 and Museo 100. Ah no I have 300 as well.

Leigh Howells:
That falls back to Helvetica Neue.

Paul Boag:
And then that falls back to Helvetica and that falls back to Verdana or Arial kind of which …

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So having the fall backs in place are really important.

Leigh Howells:
I bet.

Paul Boag:
The other thing that I’ve done on my website which I …

Leigh Howells:
Hi, Marcus. It’s nap time.

Paul Boag:
The other thing that I’ve done on my site is I’ve done this thing whereby I purposely – it stopped working now that’s really weird. No, I’ve got a glitch. What it should do is, it should purposely hide everything until it’s already and then it fades up nice, but actually I just think that’s broken bollocks. Am I allowed to say that?

Leigh Howells:
Are you allowed to say that? Does that change your rating?

Paul Boag:
Probably. Don’t we need to put …

Marcus Lillington:
Bleep

Paul Boag:
Marcus that was just so unnecessary.

Leigh Howells:
You’ve got to bleep that out

Paul Boag:
Swearing is not big, it’s not clever, kids.

Leigh Howells:
I thought it would be childish.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, it would be childish. I’m glad you’re bigger than Marcus over stuff like that.

Leigh Howells:
I think a whole bleepy section would be quite amusing.

Paul Boag:
Just a whole string of bleeps. Marcus, you – you can’t say that the on the podcast. So I think we’ve answered that. So essentially sure use the system font if it doesn’t make a big difference, because that’s always going to be faster, it’s always going to be more reliable when its rendering, etcetera, etcetera. But equally I haven’t got a problem with using web fonts and I think if you’re going to use web font really makes no difference whether you’re using it just the headings or the body font as far as I can see, because you still got to download it one way or the other, well however much you sort of use it use it.

Leigh Howells:
I suppose I would say it comes down to what is the purpose of the site, what’s the audience.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, all that normal stuff. But if somebody knows better, if somebody knows that it does cause problems with the rendering, I’ve never noticed it, but if it does cause problems with rendering and you’ve got some reliable source on the internet to back that up, then post it in the comments, I will be interested to hear. I’ve never noticed the performance issue.

Leigh Howells:
Things like mobile maybe if you’re not doing a responsive loading of fonts, you’re putting extra stuff down, which might not be necessary

Paul Boag:
Yeah, but again it’s about performance of downloading it. It’s the rendering. He seems to be implying that there is a rendering issue on the page, which is not something that I have encountered so far. But I don’t know, I’m open to be proved wrong. Send me …

Leigh Howells:
If there is a performance difference, you can’t bloody notice, can you.

Paul Boag:
No, absolutely.

Leigh Howells:
So don’t worry about it.

Paul Boag:
Yeah absolutely, don’t worry about it. Okay, I will speak very loudly over the tractor driving past and we will move on to the next segment of the show.

Is speculative design really that bad?

Its universally agreed on podcasts and with the large agencies that speculative designs are bad and should stop. Its no good for the client or the agencies pitching for work. I totally agree with this but with the smaller agencies, there is always someone who will pitch with speculative designs and normally always wins the work. Thus my question is – how do we resolve this – should the agencies try to form a bond and all agree not to pitch or do you give in and do speculative designs or do you simply keep pitching without designs and keep loosing. It seems to be a no win situation.

Nick Thorley

So Marcus what have we got next?

Marcus Lillington:
Nick Thorley who says it’s universally agreed on podcasts and with the larger agencies that speculative – and with the large agencies that speculative designs are bad and should stop. It’s no good for the client or the agencies pitching for the work, I totally agree with this, but with the smaller agencies there is always someone who will pitch with speculative designs and normally always wins the work. Thus my question is how do we resolve this? Should the agencies try to form a bond and all agree not to pitch or do you give in and do speculative designs, or do you simply keep pitching without designs and keep losing. It seems to be a no win situation.

Paul Boag:
Now what’s that thing in Star Trek when there is a no win situation, the Cameroo [ph] test and he cheats in order to win.

Leigh Howells:
Can’t remember.

Paul Boag:
It’s in Star Trek films. So that’s what I’m suggesting – he is suggesting there is a no win scenario, I disagree and I say that the answer is to cheat.

Marcus Lillington:
So, yes do it, really well. Put loads of effort into speculative design.

Paul Boag:
No. I – as Jeremy Keith would say I reject the premise of the question.

Leigh Howells:
You like saying that.

Paul Boag:
I do, because it so threw me when he first did it to me. It’s just – it’s not often someone …

Leigh Howells:
I would say clever.

Paul Boag:
… completely clever.

Leigh Howells:
I’ve used that phrase as well …

Paul Boag:
Yeah, it does sound really clever.

Leigh Howells:
… after hearing you say it.

Paul Boag:
All right.

Leigh Howells:
I didn’t come up with it myself.

Paul Boag:
No, you pass it around me. Yes, Jeremy Keith always sounds intelligent. So, yeah he is a better bullshitter than I am. On that bombshell; I love you, Jeremy. Yeah, so I actually think I don’t think you’re correct. I don’t think – I think the problem would be is you’re presenting it wrong. You’re pitching, not doing speculative design in the wrong way, if you’re losing work because of it. I actually believe that it is a strength not a weakness.

Leigh Howells:
But how does he know he is losing work because of that?

Paul Boag:
Because clients are going, you’re losing work because you’re not doing speculative design, I don’t know.

Leigh Howells:
Is that an assumption.

Marcus Lillington:
I suspect that the smaller you get project wise, the more his argument is true. I’m suspecting that.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, but that’s because you’re – okay, the argument that we take against speculative design is the one of until we get to know the client, until we understand their needs, until we do our research.

Marcus Lillington:
All of those things apply at any level.

Paul Boag:
Well, they do and they don’t. You do less research while you’re working on the smaller projects. So, in that regards maybe that’s a weaker argument. The strong argument I think at the smaller level, well it’s worth– because at small level it’s all about money. It’s all about being cheap and efficient and that the truth is that if you do a piece of speculative design, somebody somewhere has to pay for you to do that work, right.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, I will let you finish your point.

Paul Boag:
So, that may end and then you will shoot it. So that means that – that cost has to be rolled into your costs of the project. The trouble is that for every project you lose, you still done speculative design work and so who pays for that work? Ultimately the jobs you win. So therefore when you do a project, when you hire a web designer who does speculative work, you are not only paying for your own speculative work, you’re paying for other people’s as well. Now you might go, but I’m only paying the same price as will be paying the company that doesn’t do speculative design work. Yes, but ultimately there are X number of hours in the day, these people can only charge so much, so ultimately you’re going to be getting less man-hours being spent on your work for the money because they have spent time doing speculative design work.

Marcus Lillington:
That final part is the argument. Yes, I agree with that, that basically you are – what we are basically saying here is that if you go for the agency who does speculative design, they’re probably not going to be more expensive, but they are going to spend less time on your project.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
We don’t know that for sure, but logic suggests that would be the case because they are going to have to do speculative design for the next one that comes along.

Paul Boag:
And the next one, and the next one, and the next one and so it takes a lot of time.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, and so you could argue that you might end up having problems with this agency, because they’ve done speculative design.

Paul Boag:
And on top of that you can also …

Marcus Lillington:
There is a logic there.

Paul Boag:
You can also take the argument I think that you can still take the argument that speculative design is essentially showmanship.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh yeah.

Paul Boag:
It’s just trying, it’s not solving the problem, it’s not producing a website that is right solution for your business, it’s not producing a website that is the right solution for your users, it’s producing a website, web design that impresses. It’s all about the spangliness.

Marcus Lillington:
Sorry, I’m just thinking of – because this hasn’t occurred to me, I thought yes okay, people are paying for speculative design, but I think – my opinion before we thought this through, before you finish that extra bit, I thought well people don’t care. But if you tell them that they’re more or likely to be hiring somebody who isn’t going to put as much love maybe into your project. Because they’re going to be doing the next projects, speculative design, that’s a really strong argument. There is also and this is slightly relevant, people who have the time to do speculative design are potentially not the best people for your project.

Paul Boag:
Because they’ve got time sitting around doing nothing.

Marcus Lillington:
Nobody likes eating in an empty restaurant.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I think that probably needs a bit more explanation.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Paul Boag:
I thought I know where he’s coming from, but our listeners are thick and it’s worth explaining a bit more.

Leigh Howells:
Where I keep thinking about speculative design, because I follow a lot of architect companies. And the architecture world relies on speculative design. Can you imagine if they didn’t have it? Your project, we are not going to show you anything at all. We’re going to do all the research, then we might say what it looks like after we thought about it for a while.

Marcus Lillington:
But surely they can show other things they’ve built.

Leigh Howells:
But there are always competitions. They always compete speculative designs for the buildings and it’s showmanship and the people pick the one that looks the shiniest, probably the one that comes into their right budget as well, but they still solving problems, design problems but there is no sense of speculative design going away in that particular …

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I can’t comment on that, but I would be surprised it’s not a subject that isn’t discussed.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, I tried to find something about it this morning, I couldn’t see any reference to speculative design and architecture, it seems to be the way it is.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, all right that’s for competition, big buildings, but I bet if you wanted to hire architecture design on your new house, you bought an acre of farmland and you would hire him, then he’d start work. I’m pretty certain of that.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, smaller projects, yeah, obviously the things I’m seeing in blog posts and everything else that are the big jobs that …

Marcus Lillington:
I mean we’ve had this conversation before on this podcast and I’m sure at some point we said, but yeah on occasion when we’ve been briefed well enough, we have done speculative – speculative design. Once in a blue moon it does happen. That’s rare, but it does happen for certain.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, I’ve done a few things which are kind of more like demos of ideas and concepts where you can’t really get it across and it’s just to kind of get it across an idea or an approach.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, it was the idea – yeah, you’re thinking the parallax page.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, I haven’t done many bits of speculative work, but that was one.

Marcus Lillington:
That was one?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
We didn’t win it.

Leigh Howells:
No. Yeah, I saw it as a learning process for myself as well and I have to used, I’m using it in the project at the moment. So in some ways speculative design I thought the good thing that came out of it was it kind of push you to think of new ideas and push the boundaries a little bit

Paul Boag:
Yeah. It did that

Leigh Howells:
And that was the element of showmanship, I suppose, because you wanted to beat the other people. So…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
…you have to really think of some other new approach, something that perhaps you haven’t done before.

Marcus Lillington:
So as we discuss in two weeks’ time, sometimes there’s the difference between speculative design and speculative thinking.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Because we covered this last week from two weeks’ time.

Paul Boag:
We’ve been recording the podcasts out of order just to confuse people or confuse ourselves more to the point.

Marcus Lillington:
And I think showing – putting some creative thought together is okay. Not all – sometimes, it’s not always necessary and that’s kind of conclusion be reached on that one. But if you’re going to sit down and your process is to write yes, I need to pull you off the current project Mr. Designer for a day and a half, or a day or whatever. And I’ll need to do three separate designs of the homepage and yeah, if that’s the way you’re doing it, then I will but suggest you change your ways and you won’t continually be losing as it says in the question.

Paul Boag:
No, I think – that’s the thing that I have a problem with. This perception that you’ll continually lose. In fact, I think there will be numerous occasions where we have won precisely because we have turned around and said we do not do speculative design and well this is why not and it – the unwritten, the unsaid part of that is…

Marcus Lillington:
There it is

Paul Boag:
There it is. Those people that have agreed to do it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And actually that can be a very compelling argument. I think there’s also, we were talking about this this morning, weren’t we? There’s also something to be said for not pandering to clients in the pitch stage but the minute that you – it was – the minute you start saying I would do anything to win this what, whatever you want mister, then you are devaluing yourself. As soon as you start saying, I know I am sorry, that’s not the way we work, you’re effectively saying, I am not desperate for your business, right? And the more that you come across is not being desperate, the more people want you.

Marcus Lillington:
The restaurant syndrome again.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s that scarcity thing. If you say I am sorry, even if you say I’m sorry, we can’t do speculative design work on this because I am just too busy to be able to do it. Oh they are busy. Well you know. We’ve have been recently turning around to clients and say, I’m sorry, we can’t start your work until September and your brief specifically says you want to start next week kind of thing.

Marcus Lillington:
They always do.

Paul Boag:
They always do. And they are going wow, wow.

Leigh Howells:
I’ve thought that looking at people’s blogs. Are they full until September, they must be doing really well.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
Or it could all be lies. No, no, they are doing really well.

Paul Boag:
And I think so there is a value in being brave and being blatantly honest. I mean we were sitting in a pitch yesterday, this is where it came up this morning. We were sitting in a pitch yesterday and I got quite embarrassed because three times in that pitch I said you don’t want to hire us if you want this.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
And that kind of thing I think is quite powerful. I think it’s quite – it’s good to lay your cards on the table saying this is the way we want to work, take it or leave it. Because the reality is that there is shortage of clients out there. This is a big world. The Internet – there are a lot of people on the Internet, there is a shocking fact. See you learned something new. There is a lot of people on the Internet and there are – and lot of – you can find your audience somewhere and we’ve kind of talked about this before, we kind of accept that we are blokey and jokey and fun and that alienate some people but it attracts others. Okay, you might alienate some people because you don’t do speculative design but it will attract other people and so that’s okay.

Leigh Howells:
And you attract other people and you want to work with more.

Paul Boag:
And that’s so hard to grasp when you are desperate for work, it’s really hard to get the guts to do that but it works, it really does.

Marcus Lillington:
Stick to your guns or do something else basically, there you go.

Paul Boag:
See look now I said it a lot more eloquently and using a lot more words, Marcus, and you can’t just strip him down to bare minimums like that.

Marcus Lillington:
Every time. That’s for real.

Paul Boag:
What? There we go then. Let’s hear some witty joke. Let’s put on you, see if you do better, Mr. Funnyman.

Leigh Howells:
Is that the end already? That was quick wasn’t it?

Paul Boag:
Yeah. 40 minutes, that’s fine.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s fair. That’s cool. This is from Ian Laskey, the king of the joke.

Paul Boag:
Does it still feel so much longer when you are listening?

Marcus Lillington:
Some of them are a third again as long. Last week’s was, but we try to be 40 minutes at the moment, but sometimes we don’t. This is a particular favorite of mine. My…

Paul Boag:
Did you say it was Ian Laskey again?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, yeah. So you will know the quality of it.

Leigh Howells:
A professional joke teller.

Marcus Lillington:
A man’s girlfriend couldn’t cope with his fetish for touching pasta, so she left him. Now, he is feeling cannelloni.

Paul Boag:
I’m laughing way too much. Oh dear can I go home now.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s really bad isn’t it? But I by rather liked it more.

Leigh Howells:
More?

Paul Boag:
You’ve got another one. I want another one

Marcus Lillington:
No no. no one.

Paul Boag:
I want another one.

Marcus Lillington:
They’re so few and far between you can’t have more than one. Sorry, maybe if we did a Christmas show, it might be more than one.

Leigh Howells:
Maybe two.

Marcus Lillington:
More than one, yeah.

Paul Boag:
That’s extravagant, isn’t it? Okay, so that’s us done for this week. Thank you very much all for listening. Thank you, Leigh, for joining us.

Leigh Howells:
Thank you for allowing me to bless your show.

Paul Boag:
Bless your…

Marcus Lillington:
In your presence I do feel blessed.

Leigh Howells:
It came out the wrong way.

Paul Boag:
I do.

Leigh Howells:
It’s the other way round but I couldn’t get the word.

Marcus Lillington:
That would have sounded creepy the other way round.

Leigh Howells:
It would, yeah.

Paul Boag:
And thank you too for your overwhelming praise for us.

Leigh Howells:
Yes. That’s probably the beer.

Paul Boag:
What you need to do is you need to go to iTunes and write us a review.

Leigh Howells:
I can’t write a review.

Paul Boag:
Why not?

Marcus Lillington:
Leigh at Headscape…

Paul Boag:
Just use a pseudonym, it’s fine

Leigh Howells:
So you just want fake reviews; not fake, real review.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, real review. I do want – we do appreciate those people that have written reviews on iTunes because I know it’s…

Marcus Lillington:
Even the nasty ones.

Paul Boag:
There are very few of those. What you can do you can write me one – I had to create a new feed for the short audio tips, web design advice on the go, I think I call it something like that. I had to put a new feed up because the other one corrupted for some reason which meant that all of the reviews on that’s gone, so it’s now naught. There is nothing there. So you can go and write them.

Leigh Howells:
I listen to a podcast on Android and I have no idea – I have never seen a review anywhere.

Paul Boag:
It’s an iTunes thing.

Leigh Howells:
The Play store obviously doesn’t have…

Paul Boag:
Yeah, it just not – it’s not the cool kids. Android user.

Leigh Howells:
I like to use all different platforms.

Marcus Lillington:
Android, that’s what the kids use isn’t it?

Leigh Howells:
OS agnostic and it is part of my Twitter profile. I am OS agnostic.

Paul Boag:
You’re very inclusive. You include everyone.

Marcus Lillington:
Do you have a Windows machine at home?

Leigh Howells:
I do. I use Windows 7 and Windows 8.

Paul Boag:
You use Windows 8?

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So, do I, it’s horrible.

Marcus Lillington:
Is that for gaming?

Leigh Howells:
No, music.

Marcus Lillington:
Music, yeah. But we do that on your Mac, surely. It’s not big enough.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, the big huge powerful PC for that…

Paul Boag:
You’re not tempted by Mac Pro.

Leigh Howells:
I’d love a Mac Pro. It’s fantastic.

Marcus Lillington:
The toilet roll. Actually no…

Paul Boag:
I thought it was a flower vase

Marcus Lillington:
Beautiful.

Paul Boag:
It’s lovely.

Leigh Howells:
I think it’s a really basically good design for a computer.

Paul Boag:
Is it – I haven’t actually seen it. Central cooling. It has a hollow in the middle.

Leigh Howells:
So your circuit boards are all close and it’s cooling goes through the center. So actually…

Paul Boag:
Right.

Leigh Howells:
…it’s the optimum kind of space.

Paul Boag:
What I love…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
What I did enjoy about the keynote this time round is there is a lot more humor since Steve Jobs left. The whole, screw those that say we can’t innovate or whatever I can’t remember…

Leigh Howells:
Was there no humour before?

Paul Boag:
Oh, no, he was always very intense and serious while now little bits of humor are creeping in. I like it, it’s nice.

Leigh Howells:
There’ll be dancing girls, like a Samsung presentation.

Paul Boag:
Oh God that terrible. So missed the mark didn’t they? Bless them. Okay, yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m sat her thinking why do I need a Mac Pro. Why do I need…

Leigh Howells:
You don’t need a Mac Pro.

Marcus Lillington:
We have everything at home. A little iPad, a big iPad. So…

Paul Boag:
Marcus’ mantra is that as cutting edge web design, we need to be seen to have the cutting edge technology.

Leigh Howells:
Perhaps you should record this on a Mac Pro which can sit right in the center of the table because it’s a perfect roundtable.

Paul Boag:
Roundtable, round center. All the mic stands might get in the way mind. Anyway, are we still recording the show?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
We ought to finish it.

Leigh Howells:
Is it now 45 minutes?

Paul Boag:
We’ll carry on talking but you guys just go off now. Alright.

Leigh Howells:
We can carry on talking and you can fade out.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, fade out.

Our sincere thanks to the guys at PodsInPrint for transcribing this show.

Headscape

Boagworld