Boagworld Show S07E03

Web & Digital Advice

Digital and web advice from Headscape and the addled brain of Paul Boag... tell me more

Paul Boag Posted by: Paul Boag On Friday, 27th September, 2013

Flat Mobile

This week on the Boagworld web design podcast we discuss flat design and whether we should ever be building a separate mobile website.

Season 7:
The estimated time to read this article is 54 minutes
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Paul Boag:
This week on the Boagworld web design podcast we discuss flat design and whether we should be building separate mobile websites.

Hello and welcome to boagworld.com, the podcast for all those involved in designing, developing, and running websites on a daily basis. My name is Paul. I am being joined this week by my illustrious colleagues, plural notice, of Marcus. Hello, Marcus.

Marcus Lillington:
Hello, Paul. How are you?

Paul Boag:
Wonderful as always. And also by Leigh, hello Leigh.

Leigh Howells:
Hello, Paul. Hello, Paul.

Paul Boag:
I accused him earlier of sounding like a chipmunk. So he is now putting on his best radio voice.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, I came right up to microphone. Hello, people in Internet land.

Marcus Lillington:
That won’t last long will it?

Leigh Howells:
No, I’ll have to sit back again.

Paul Boag:
So this has got to be a quick show people. Because –

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah because we’re – we’re going to the new office. Yay!

Leigh Howells:
Whoo!

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Well we’re actually moving in. That made it sound like we’re moving in immediately after this podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
That is the only thing I don’t like about …

Marcus Lillington:
We’ll be like shutting the door, locking the [laughter] –

Paul Boag:
That’s the only thing I don’t like about our new office. We don’t have a dedicated podcast area.

Marcus Lillington:
No it’s – yes, that’s another thing, we need to get a cupboard in the waiting room, so we can just put everything – all this shit that’s on the table in front of us.

Leigh Howells:
Straight in a cupboard.

Paul Boag:
I want a separate studio. When we were looking on there, there was a website –

Marcus Lillington:
I want, I want.

Paul Boag:
I want, I want. We need to buy – we need to hire – we need to buy one of the other rooms in the building or something…

Leigh Howells:
A cupboard.

Paul Boag:
… especially for podcasting.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I mean there – yeah, there probably is another room in the building.

Paul Boag:
We ought to have a look actually. That’s not a bad idea, because you can also …

Marcus Lillington:
Ooh, we can go in there today and go, ooh hello, we’re moving in.

Paul Boag:
Yes, we are borrowing your room. We could do it in the office with them there. That wouldn’t be at all disruptive.

Marcus Lillington:
Not at all.

Leigh Howells:
I saw a really cool thing, was it the Google offices that they have got like beehive things…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
And they all kind of …

Paul Boag:
That was in the post I put recently.

Leigh Howells:
Was that where I saw it?

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, that was awesome. What are they called?

Marcus Lillington:
A beehive.

Leigh Howells:
Beehive things.

Leigh Howells:
Were they actually meant to be beehives?

Paul Boag:
I don’t know, but they did look like them.

Leigh Howells:
They did.

Paul Boag:
Well actually on – we went shopping for meeting tables and dividers and they do acoustic pods.

Leigh Howells:
Pod, I like the word.

Paul Boag:
An acoustic pod.

Leigh Howells:
It’s a podcast after all?

Paul Boag:
Now what I really want is a set…

Leigh Howells:
A set?

Paul Boag:
Right. And move to video.

Leigh Howells:
I was going to do you a –

Marcus Lillington:
Oh a set, oh right.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, we talked about it once though, didn’t we?

Leigh Howells:
I was looking at how to buy bales of hay and all sorts of things.

Paul Boag:
I still – I would really like to do video, but it’s all the hassle of it. So much of a –

Leigh Howells:
There was a barn theme with that there; that was quite a good theme.

Marcus Lillington:
But we don’t have enough room.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
We don’t have enough room for bloody podcasting let alone having a set – a video set. Anyway you kept saying let’s talk about that on the podcast and I can’t remember what any of it was.

Paul Boag:
Well one of that was about how you – old men do podcasts and young guys…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
… do Youtube videos, which is why I want to start doing a Youtube video…

Marcus Lillington:
I see. I see

Paul Boag:
… because I want to be young again.

Leigh Howells:
Ah, that’s what it is.

Marcus Lillington:
You can’t be. That’s not possible, Paul.

Paul Boag:
I’m young at heart.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, I’m still –

Leigh Howells:
We are all about 12. Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I actually think I’m 18, in my head.

Paul Boag:
Emotional maturity, I think I’m younger than that to be frank with you. No, I’m really pleased with our office. And the great –

Marcus Lillington:
You haven’t been there yet.

Paul Boag:
And the great – and the – did you see that Pete re-tweeted a phrase that I said and overheard earlier, which is, well that’s saved us a lot of money on AstroTurf. I’m a bit nervous about this AstroTurf that I’ve recommended we get.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, it’s your idea.

Leigh Howells:
How do you go about recommending AstroTurf in the first place?

Marcus Lillington:
You just go Paul and Paul will go, I know we’ll have AstroTurf in the meeting room. Done.

Leigh Howells:
It was well considered. The recommendation.

Paul Boag:
No, it was because for this – damn, I wish I could talk about it, the secret project that I’ve been working on, I was doing some research and I was looking into different offices that different companies have and there was this one company that had AstroTurf.

Leigh Howells:
What secret project?

Paul Boag:
I can’t say. Shut up. It’s driving me around the twist.

Marcus Lillington:
I know.

Paul Boag:
Do you not know? You know?

Leigh Howells:
Yes, I know.

Paul Boag:
You know, yes. So anyway …

Leigh Howells:
I didn’t know it was a secret.

Paul Boag:
Yes, it is unfortunately. I don’t know why it’s a secret. I think I should be able to talk about it by now but anyway I can’t. Yes and it was one offices that had AstroTurf and I thought, ooh that’s kind of fun.

Leigh Howells:
Does it make you more creative? Is that what it is.

Paul Boag:
Yes, apparently.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, you’ve got ask AstroTurf, you get creative instantly.

Paul Boag:
They have done research and it increased your creativity by 23%.

Marcus Lillington:
They have.

Paul Boag:
They.

Marcus Lillington:
They.

Paul Boag:
They, AstroTurf manufacturers.

Marcus Lillington:
I remember what the other thing was …

Paul Boag:
What?

Marcus Lillington:
… you were admiring my performance on the unfinished business.

Leigh Howells:
Ah, unfinished business.

Paul Boag:
Ah, we did – although it did occur to me that we have spoken about that.

Marcus Lillington:
You hadn’t listened to it.

Paul Boag:
But I hadn’t listened to it and I have now listened to it.

Marcus Lillington:
And I had – I don’t think I confessed my state of mind when I did it.

Paul Boag:
What that you were hung over?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
But then I presume that with every – any time you appear on a podcast.

Leigh Howells:
It did sound a bit subdued now I think about it. Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I got – I was right at the start, hi, yeah this is great…

Leigh Howells:
You petered out, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
By the end of it I was like yeah, when is this going to finish?

Paul Boag:
No –

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, it’s because I had agreed to do it on the Friday afternoon and it was like we had – I had to say to Anna that I’m really sorry but I can’t do it, I’ve got too much on. Busy, busy week. And she said could you do it tomorrow, tomorrow being Saturday. I said, yes go on then. How about 2 o’clock? And I went out on that evening and I had a – one or two too many. Then got up really early to play golf so by the time I came back all I wanted to do was fall sleep. It was like, shit.

Leigh Howells:
Not record, not have your voice and your thoughts…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
And your mental process recorded …

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly.

Leigh Howells:
…and broadcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
It was quite good. I thought it was all right. Did you listen to it?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. Yeah, I did listen to it.

Paul Boag:
He wasn’t a complete embarrassment, was he?

Leigh Howells:
No, I was quite shocked. Oh it’s Marcus what’s he doing? I think I had just listened to this podcast as well. He was – twice in a row.

Paul Boag:
It’s really annoying, isn’t it? It’s like on TV, every time you turn the TV on – there was a stage where every time you turned the TV on Michael McIntyre was on. It’s like – David Mitchell is another one.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
He’s always on TV.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, he’s on everything.

Paul Boag:
He’s not annoying.

Marcus Lillington:
I like David Mitchell.

Leigh Howells:
I like David Mitchell.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
But don’t like Michael McIntyre.

Paul Boag:
See I like Michael McIntyre.

Marcus Lillington:
Michael McIntyre.

Paul Boag:
I – he just makes me laugh, I’m sorry.

Marcus Lillington:
Nah, he is a pillock.

Paul Boag:
But he is supposed to be a pillock, he is a comedian, what do you want?

Leigh Howells:
He’s got an annoying, face.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s –

Paul Boag:
You can’t …

Marcus Lillington:
You just want to slap him.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. Which isn’t good for TV really.

Paul Boag:
Oh, welcome to the tolerance that is Headscape. Gah, you guys are so bad.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m so intolerant.

Paul Boag:
We haven’t got time.

Marcus Lillington:
I told off one of my friends for posting something on Facebook. It thought bloody hell I am intolerant.

Leigh Howells:
About you?

Marcus Lillington:
No, no, no about – it was like what I consider to be – I think I used the term utter bollocks.

Leigh Howells:
Oh, right.

Marcus Lillington:
And then I got everyone saying, everyone is entitled to their opinion, Marcus.

Paul Boag:
No, they are not. They are not. That is not true. Some people are not entitled to their opinion. For example the Ku Klux Klan they’re not entitled to their opinion. Their opinion is wrong and they can stuff it up their ass.

Leigh Howells:
They are certain opinions, which are just wrong, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
They are still entitled to their opinion.

Paul Boag:
No, they are not. I’m sorry.

Leigh Howells:
Which is a clever segue into a debate?

Paul Boag:
We are not Americans, right. We haven’t got freedom of speech in this country. Not written into a constitution, because we don’t have a constitution.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s what our country is all about.

Paul Boag:
I know it is. But it’s not written down.

Marcus Lillington:
What makes our country …?

Paul Boag:
What my opinion is, is what it is allowed basically. I dictate. This is Boagworld.

Marcus Lillington:
So I bought – I stopped listening and I’ve gone off doing other things, Paul.

Paul Boag:
What have you done? I’m not convinced by myself either. But never mind. I’m not entitled to my own opinion, in my opinion.

Marcus Lillington:
I wanted to …

Paul Boag:
I’m very confused now. What are we talking about today?

Leigh Howells:
What is this show about?

Paul Boag:
No, I’ve completely off – because I went off to – for some reason we got talking about my offices. So I went to the store …

Leigh Howells:
Your offices?

Marcus Lillington:
Your office.

Paul Boag:
My office.

Leigh Howells:
My office, my AstroTurf.

Paul Boag:
Why is it mine? God, I am really arrogant today, aren’t I?

Leigh Howells:
Today.

Paul Boag:
I’ve had – it’s because I drank Relentless this morning. That was my breakfast. O that’s so bad isn’t it?

Leigh Howells:
That’s funny because I saw a massive truck on the motorway carrying this massive oversized Relentless tin.

Paul Boag:
That was for me.

Leigh Howells:
It was yours. He was on his way to that strange place that you live, where is that?

Paul Boag:
Blandford.

Leigh Howells:
Blandford, yes.

Paul Boag:
Right. I found the show notes, now we’re back home.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, so have I.

Paul Boag:
Okay. So we’ve got two subjects today. We’re going to talk about flat design and I’m going to get opinionated, I have to admit, on that one. And then we’re going to talk very – I’m a bit worried about the second one, if I’m honest, because it maybe overlaps a little bit with what we talked about last week. I should have kept this one for later in the season, which we were going to talk about …

Marcus Lillington:
But you’re too lazy.

Paul Boag:
Separate mobile sites? No actually, I’ve got lots of other ideas on the boil, but I don’t know I just put it in the wrong place. I didn’t think it through.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh well.

Paul Boag:
Story of my life.

Marcus Lillington:
People can just turn it off.

Paul Boag:
Pretty much

Marcus Lillington:
If they get bored with it.

Paul Boag:
They can.

Marcus Lillington:
They’re probably bored with it already.

Paul Boag:
Right. Shall we talk about the first thing because we’ve got get this over in like half an hour.

Is flat design damaging usability?

This house proposes that the current trend towards flat design is damaging the usability and intuitiveness of many websites and applications.

Have your say

Okay, so we’re talking about flat design and the state – our debate point –

Marcus Lillington:
How are we going to do this, Paul? There is three of us.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, because I was thinking that, there is three of us.

Paul Boag:
Well to be frank, we’ve failed singularly to in any way…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
You failed doubly actually.

Paul Boag:
… yeah, twice in – well four times, now because this is episode three.

Leigh Howells:
Oh is it.

Marcus Lillington:
Every single time we end up taking both sides of the argument and …

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. Well, which side is this again? Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
I don’t know what side we’re arguing anymore.

Marcus Lillington:
So yes, so it doesn’t matter. What is it –

Paul Boag:
It doesn’t matter.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, what are we discussing?

Paul Boag:
So the house proposes, right, the house proposes that the current trend – to be honest, Paul proposes and I’m very biased on this one, that the current trend towards flat design is damaging usability and intuitiveness of many websites and applications.

Leigh Howells:
Sharp intake of breath.

Paul Boag:
Controversial that. This is really interesting conversation. So have you – do you know what I mean by flat design, Marcus?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, totally.

Paul Boag:
Right. And have you – to be honest I had in my head in particular iOS 7, which I’ve been using for a little while now. Have you played with iOS 7?

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Leigh Howells:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
Other than that bit when you can turn the screen a bit and it goes, ooh a bit like –

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Have you played with it at all?

Leigh Howells:
No.

Paul Boag:
See, I’ve been running it on my machine and I feel …

Leigh Howells:
It’s damaging the usability and intuitiveness of your phone?

Paul Boag:
Yes. In certain cases and to be honest the one – within iOS 7, the big one for me is the slide to unlock, right? It – I mean, especially they have improved it.

Leigh Howells:
That’s going anyway surely. Fingerprint to unlock.

Paul Boag:
Well, yeah.

Leigh Howells:
So it doesn’t need to be intuitive anymore.

Paul Boag:
But they have improved it. I mean the first beta was absolutely awful, because they had the words ‘slide to unlock’ written on it.

Leigh Howells:
Oh yeah, yeah I remember that.

Paul Boag:
And then there was a little arrow underneath pointing up, right?

Leigh Howells:
So you would slide up?

Paul Boag:
So you would slide up and all you would do is bring up the new control panel-y thing.

Leigh Howells:
Oh, really?

Paul Boag:
Yes, which is what the little – and it has got – but now it has got this kind of swipe across. But it’s still – it’s just not as clear as the big unlock bar. Right?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, there is no kind of visual button because that would be skeuomorphic.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
So it’s just the words.

Paul Boag:
And it’s buttons that really do it.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And I think somebody actually says this to me – says this in one of the notes and I can’t remember which one it is, but somebody – ah, here it goes. Steven said this, he says I think there is a misunderstanding and confusion between flat and simple. Simple design is great, very intuitive and gets right to the point. Flat goes one further, taking away background noise to help simplify the interface, but I fear that it fails in many ways. In one area in particular, buttons. Buttons are by design something to be clicked and provide a visual clue that something is clickable is a good thing and makes an interface intuitive and discoverable. And I think that’s the big problem it’s when – that when buttons don’t look like buttons, it’s a problem.

Leigh Howells:
But then what does a button look like and are we taking –

Paul Boag:
A button has to be raised in some way.

Leigh Howells:
But that’s because of the – we’re taking the physical world…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
Into the digital world but –

Paul Boag:
But I think to some degree –

Leigh Howells:
As the – as…

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I would agree with what you just said.

Leigh Howells:
As the physical world becomes less so and there are less things with buttons on, then what is a button then, in a world where everything is touchscreen.

Paul Boag:
Okay. It could be anything, but there needs to be some kind of convention…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…and that’s what there is not.

Leigh Howells:
That’s what there needs to be.

Paul Boag:
And if there is a convention that is already established from physical buttons in the real world, then why create a new one? Because – okay, for us it’s fine. It took me about 30 seconds to get used to iOS 7, right. But it is confusing. If I – I gave my phone to my mom because she wanted to make a call and she was stumped and she owns an iPhone, but she was stumped. How do I unlock this thing? You know, and even looking at some of the buttons and stuff she didn’t always grasp as intuitively what was clickable and what’s not.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And in iOS 7 there is like in – I don’t know – it’s a bit unfair to pick just on iOS 7, I mean there is a lot I like about it. But there – in things like the app store, there is – when you’ve previously purchased an item in the app store, it now turns to this little cloud icon with a down arrow, right.

Leigh Howells:
Oh, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Now that doesn’t look clickable. It is clickable and that’s how you start the app downloading…

Leigh Howells:
Right.

Paul Boag:
But it doesn’t look it. And to make matters worse, if you go into – what was it, I was looking, there was somewhere else, where it had a – the cloud icon and it wasn’t clickable somewhere else and I can’t remember where it was. So – just make it look like a frigging button, it doesn’t need to be a fully skeu – I am – I, you know, I agree totally that skeuomorphism went too far when it started having textured leather backgrounds on your calendar and the little tear off note bits and all that but –

Leigh Howells:
But I love that.

Paul Boag:
I don’t mind it.

Leigh Howells:
I mean you’re a big music user, aren’t you, Marcus? I love the skeuomorphic interfaces on applications like synthesizers and things, you see all the sliders and buttons, it’s pretty. If they were just numbers and like flat bits of text – sort of graphics it would be really boring.

Marcus Lillington:
I think – yes, I mean for things like recreating guitar pedals on …

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
On screen then yes, you want them to be as realistic as possible.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, that’s the same thing.

Marcus Lillington:
But it’s not necessarily the same as button design, full stop. Button design could be basically a word with a circle around it. That still could be a button.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m not saying it’s the most ideal design. But I just think what we’re talking about here is flat design, fingers raised, a trend or is it a style? And there’s –

Paul Boag:
What’s the difference?

Leigh Howells:
Same, yeah.

Paul Boag:
It’s definitely a trend, but it’s also a style.

Marcus Lillington:
But –

Leigh Howells:
Yes, it’s both on the same.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. What – what am I trying to say here? I guess what I’m trying to say here is, is there a distinct set of flat design rules that you must adhere to at all times or can you design something that is wonderfully easy to use and still stick within the flat design style.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I mean that’s what …

Marcus Lillington:
If that’s okay, then I disagree, I – with what – with the house.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I mean what Christophe, has …

Marcus Lillington:
Christophe Goasduff.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I’m not going to try his surname. He said don’t blame flat design trends for poor usability; blame poor designers. And to some extent that is true. Some of the issues in iOS 7 that I have wouldn’t be issues, you could still have a flat design and there not be issues. So I do understand the other side of it. I think what has happened – well, this is something that I was going to use for the conclusion but I’ll say it now, which is – Donald Livingston says, which is when the pendulum swings to either extreme things become messy. It is possible for an interface to either become too flat or minimal or become too skeuomorphic – skeuomorphicly bloated that the program or site becomes unusable. As with many things finding the balance is key. And I think that’s what happened is we’ve swung – you know…

Leigh Howells:
Well –

Paul Boag:
Skeuomorphism got more and more ridiculous…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And now suddenly there has been this swing right back in the other direction and I think we’ve gone too far. I look at for example Windows with this new panel design and again it doesn’t look clickable.

Leigh Howells:
No, and I have already had that kind of problem when I’ve been trying to use tiled interfaces and feedback what is clickable.

Paul Boag:
What’s clickable and what’s not.

Leigh Howells:
But is that part of the culture and the conventions become accepted, you know, just try clicking on a thing that looks like a panel…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
Because you’ve got used to that concept, I don’t know?

Paul Boag:
But it takes – but – okay, I think the problem is that we’ve swung too rapidly.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
We haven’t given the rest…

Leigh Howells:
We haven’t evolved.

Paul Boag:
Of the world time to catch…

Leigh Howells:
No.

Paul Boag:
Up with that new way of thinking.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You know, because we are into kind of new and trendy and different and we’re used to adapting and fiddling and clicking around and things, a lot of people when faced with an interface are afraid of trying stuff because they are afraid of getting it wrong, they’re afraid of breaking an interface.

Leigh Howells:
There was a big difference I suppose between website use and something like a mobile, because you haven’t even got the interaction of hover and things like that …

Paul Boag:
No.

Leigh Howells:
So you say, you – I’ll hover over button that reveals itself to be more clickable, you haven’t even got that at all in a phone, you sort – everything is flat.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
So you lose another layer of interaction.

Paul Boag:
But also the other thing – because a lot of people are saying, well you get used to iOS 7, right, and it is true, you do. And in some ways it is great because for example the lock screen now you can swipe anywhere on the screen, instead of just that bar, which if you –

Leigh Howells:
In any direction?

Paul Boag:
You’re trying to do things one handed – no, not any direction which is really annoying.

Leigh Howells:
Oh, right.

Paul Boag:
It feels like you should be able to do either direction, but it won’t let you. So actually in some ways its usability has been improved and with a mobile device people do get used to something because they will persevere with it. I’ve just spend 500 quid on a new device, if – I’m going to get used to it, I’m going to stick with it. You now apply that across into web design and that doesn’t apply. Oh, I’m faced with a new interface, screw this, I will go to some site – some other site.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. Yeah, it’s not something you’re using day in, day out…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
… it’s something you’ll stumble upon, maybe use once every now and again, you don’t want to have to relearn, so – yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yes, so this – again this swing towards – this radical – it’s designers and their obsession with ooh, this is a new thing, we’re going to do this.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And I – and we both have that as well.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, I mean I’ve immediately started doing tiled interfaces, without even thinking about it, it just seems – it can seem quite a natural thing and you can – I’ve seen them looking quite pretty as well.

Paul Boag:
I would – interestingly, I’m writing a blogpost at the moment, which talks about tiles – well, objects…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You know, and cards whatever you want to call them and actually saying I think they are a really sensible direction to go in…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
But you’ve got to take users with you.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, they may need a chance to get used to this concept.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
To learn.

Paul Boag:
So, yes – and what else have we got written on this? Now SirLawkins – I like that, calling yourself sir. I think I could go with that. He makes a point, which …

Marcus Lillington:
SirRawlins.

Paul Boag:
What did I say?

Marcus Lillington:
Lawkins.

Paul Boag:
I did, didn’t I? Where did I read that? I don’t even care.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m only here to sort your reading out, Paul, obviously.

Paul Boag:
I don’t like names.

Marcus Lillington:
No, you don’t, do you? You really, really don’t.

Paul Boag:
It’s because I don’t like people.

Leigh Howells:
You think they should all be numbers.

Paul Boag:
I don’t care who you are. Really, you could be anyone for all I care.

Leigh Howells:
Number two on the list.

Paul Boag:
Number two, whoever you are. Oh yes, I’m supposed to be reading out what you’re saying, wasn’t I? Yes, he said, I think that flat design actually has the potential to enhance usability. Now this is the weakest argument I’ve ever heard, right.

Marcus Lillington:
Because it’s different to your opinion.

Paul Boag:
Because it’s different to my opinion. So you are wrong – Lawkins, Rawkins, whatever your name is, you’re wrong.

Marcus Lillington:
Rawlins.

Leigh Howells:
Rawlins. Why is he wrong, Paul?

Paul Boag:
He is wrong. He says, not because it is functionally more or less usable for users than a skeuomorphic approach, but because less work is required by a designer to create a flat interface, bull shit. He reckons there is less work involved in creating a flat interface.

Leigh Howells:
I can understand why people would believe that.

Paul Boag:
That’s very naïve.

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I actually think there is more work.

Leigh Howells:
There is, because you’ve got to make it –

Paul Boag:
Every little detail has to be – you can’t just go for a big Wow! factor by putting a nice …

Leigh Howells:
No.

Paul Boag:
Pretty textured background.

Leigh Howells:
No.

Paul Boag:
You’ve got to pick over all the little details.

Leigh Howells:
Yes and I always used to think minimalism was easier.

Paul Boag:
Oh no.

Leigh Howells:
But bloody hell it’s hard.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
Because it can just – boring crap.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

It doesn’t look minimal, it just looks dull.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
Unless you know what you’re doing and then it’s a true art form.

Paul Boag:
I think – absolutely. So, I disagree with his comment entirely.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
I just included it, to ridicule this person. I’m a bad man, aren’t I?

Marcus Lillington:
You are very bad.

Paul Boag:
People are going to stop commenting.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, you will finish this show by saying please, please, please send in your comments so I can slag you off.

Paul Boag:
No, I – I’m – sometimes my joking doesn’t work, like my Ku Klux Klan comment earlier.

Leigh Howells:
I don’t understand why that enhances usability though What – how that –

Paul Boag:
He is saying basically – he saying that …

Marcus Lillington:
You can spend more time –

Paul Boag:
It allows more budget and effort on visual design.

Leigh Howells:
Oh, I see.

Paul Boag:
Oh, sorry – so away from visual design towards usability.

Leigh Howells:
Right, okay.

Paul Boag:
I don’t agree with him, I’m sorry. But I – thank you for commenting. Sounds so insincere now, doesn’t it? It’s too late. I’ve done the damage.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I don’t – I still don’t really know what flat design means. What’s the difference between flat design and minimalism?

Paul Boag:
Minimalism in my view is removing as much as you can.

Marcus Lillington:
So that’s what my impression – I thought –

Paul Boag:
That’s the thought behind it.

Marcus Lillington:
I thought that’s what you meant by flat design because if it is removing everything, so therefore making – logically therefore you may be making the user experience more difficult because you’ve removed stuff to help people.

Paul Boag:
Yes – no, it’s not that. It’s getting rid of gradients, it’s getting rid of textured backgrounds, it’s – think Swiss design.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, yeah.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Swiss would be flat design.

Marcus Lillington:
I have no problem with it at all when – as long as it’s thought through.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
If it’s designed properly then, yeah. I disagree.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Leigh Howells:
You can do both really badly.

Paul Boag:
Well let’s see what Keane says, because he agrees with me. He says, design conventions and skeuomorphisms aids in this understanding by tapping on people’s previous experience. The way flat design is being promoted and implemented has stripped this too far and expects all users to have an intimate knowledge of the digital world as well as a willingness – and that’s the key bit – a willingness to guess meaning.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Skeuomorphism went too far and has been used for purely decorative purposes rather than to aid meaning and understanding. But by using only digitally authentic design techniques we are making those visiting a website work harder, which is something we support…

Marcus Lillington:
We’re supposed to try and avoid.

Paul Boag:
Yes. I think – that’s the key for me that I think with websites it makes users work too hard to learn the interface.

Marcus Lillington:
I – yes. If that’s the case, then that’s true. But I don’t think you necessarily have to have buttons that look like buttons to make them usable.

Paul Boag:
Marcus it sounds very much like you’re coming down in an – in a it depends scenario. You know how we feel about that.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t think I’ve used those words though, Paul.

Paul Boag:
No, you didn’t.

Leigh Howells:
It has got to look clickable or interactable with how that happens in a…

Marcus Lillington:
You know, you’ve got –

Leigh Howells:
Digital – purely digital world when there isn’t this knowledge of the previous experience. I – that’s a language we have to do –

Marcus Lillington:
Well you – going back to my – what I said earlier that a button could be a word with a circular or an oval around it.

Leigh Howells:
What is about that that looks clickable?

Marcus Lillington:
The fact that it’s button shaped and it’s still –

Leigh Howells:
Yes, I mean that could be perfectly flat and –

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, and it is flat design it’s just – you know –

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
A blue – say it’s blue on white background.

Leigh Howells:
But also in the absence of anything else on the screen to interact with, that might be enough to give it that clue.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
But it depends what else is on the screen as well.

Paul Boag:
And – yes.

Leigh Howells:
How much stuff.

Paul Boag:
Yes. But then inevitably some designer is going to come along and say well, actually people can see on

Leigh Howells:
And that’s how designers talk.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, they do. People – designers that annoy me do. I am such a bigot. What –

Marcus Lillington:
What are they inevitably going to do?

Paul Boag:
They’re inevitably going to say, oh well you can tell it’s clickable, because when you hover over it your cursor changes. But that is the same argument for removing underlines on links…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And that drives me nuts.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Anyway. I’m really in a arsey mood today. Let’s move on, so I can shout about the next subject.

Do we need separate mobile websites?

This house proposes that where budgets allow organisations should create a separate mobile website instead of relying on responsive design.

Have your say

Okay, so the next – and to be honest, the next one I don’t – I – I – I swing.

Marcus Lillington:
Do you? Do you, Paul? You’re always swinging Paul, aren’t you?

Paul Boag:
I swing both ways.

Leigh Howells:
That’s almost worse – that’s even more, yes.

Paul Boag:
Exactly.

Marcus Lillington:
There is two thing there with different meanings. You’re a swinger who swings both ways.

Leigh Howells:
That a lot of swingingness.

Paul Boag:
So perhaps I’m not going to get as ranty and bigoted over this one, because I don’t feel as strongly over it. So this – this is the one I am a bit worried was a bit similar to the one last week, but it kind of builds on what we were talking about last week. So this house proposes that where budget – bidget?

Marcus Lillington:
Where bidgets?

Paul Boag:
I can’t even speak.

Marcus Lillington:
No, you can’t.

Paul Boag:
This house proposes that where budgets allow organizations should create a separate mobile site instead of relying on responsive design. This is an interesting one, because I think ultimately it comes down to a very simple argument – well no, it’s not simple to resolve, but a very clear argument about context. Whether or not – I have decided what I think over this one actually just in kind of saying out loud myself – whether or not context matters with mobile devices. So, for example, somebody who – let’s pick Donald Livingston again, we just had him a minute ago, didn’t we?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, we did.

Paul Boag:
Donald. No, we didn’t.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, Donald summed up really.

Paul Boag:
Yes, Donald made a lot of sense the last time, let’s see if he makes sense this time. He says –

Marcus Lillington:
Do you want me to read this?

Paul Boag:
Yeah, go on then.

Marcus Lillington:
Seeing as you can’t read today, Paul.

Paul Boag:
I know. Well nobody else tries to read these things.

Marcus Lillington:
There are certainly going to be circumstances where dedicating manpower, or womanpower as the case may be…

Paul Boag:
Very politically correct.

Marcus Lillington:
To building and maintaining a separate mobile website makes sense for a company. I imagine a company with a sales force that uses their mobile devices as a sales tool would benefit from a site dedicated to those parameters. However, as a general rule creating a single adaptive or responsive site makes the most sense in terms of both design and maintenance. So he is on the fence.

Paul Boag:
No, he is not. He agrees with the house. This house proposes that where budgets allow – well, no he is saying –

Marcus Lillington:
No he’s not. He started to say, well but however –

Paul Boag:
He’s not saying just – yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
In the majority of circumstances.

Leigh Howells:
He is summing it up again, isn’t he?

Paul Boag:
He is not – yes, he is not saying where budgets allow, is he? He is saying where the right circumstances exist.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
That is quite a niche circumstance that he is identifying.

Leigh Howells:
But you do need the budget to be able to do that.

Paul Boag:
Yes, budgets is a part of it as well. But I do like – I like his logic there of – Donald talks a lot of sense, doesn’t he?

Leigh Howells:
He does.

Marcus Lillington:
He does actually.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Donald, you get – yeah, in fact I might make you a knight of Boagworld. All right, second only.

Leigh Howells:
He could just do all the arguments either way and sum them up.

Paul Boag:
He could do, couldn’t he? He is really – yes. But I like his kind of scenario where you know you have got an audience that are doing a specific thing on a mobile device that has been provided by the company, so you know what the device is.

Leigh Howells:
And its context, mobile.

Paul Boag:
And in the context – you know the context as well.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So that’s really good.

Marcus Lillington:
So why wouldn’t you develop an app in that case?

Leigh Howells:
Because that is even more work I presume.

Paul Boag:
You could create a native app, that’s true.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
But that particular example…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Sales force all using the same device –

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Might be a native app is better.

Leigh Howells:
Might be.

Paul Boag:
Yes, except the app would be more expensive to develop.

Marcus Lillington:
It would be.

Paul Boag:
And it would tie you very specifically to that device that you might change, while a website possibly could be a bit more adaptable.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, you can update a website more easily and stuff like that. So – yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. So it would be – yeah, but then it depends on connectivity. If sales force is out and about you can’t guarantee –

Marcus Lillington:
Coming back to what you said about context, I have in many meetings when I’ve said ah, but you can’t assume context of the device.

Paul Boag:
That’s the key. And a lot of the ones that disagree with that statement I think say that, but I can’t now spot any of them when I look at the site.

Marcus Lillington:
But it’s like, you know –it’s like well you’re only if you’re going to need the contact details as you’re rushing down the busy London street or whatever. Yes, okay, what you might want to look up a menu when you’re sat on your sofa with your phone. So –

Paul Boag:
Yeah, it’s this assumption that if you are at home you won’t be using a mobile device, which is untrue. Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Which I always do, well I was using that as – I actually –

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
I went to a meeting last week, with one of our clients and one of their competitors’ adverts came on the telly and I thought well, I’d better go and have a look at that because I’m talking to them about the same thing tomorrow and I couldn’t use the site because I’m now blind. And basically they didn’t have a responsive design or all mobile site. So yeah, context does matter.

Leigh Howells:
Perhaps it’s –

Marcus Lillington:
I wanted to go in and look at the process and all this kind of stuff.

Leigh Howells:
Perhaps it’s most extreme case of context on each device like you wouldn’t be rushing down a street with an iPad probably. So the context extreme is greater for a phone, you could be doing that.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So I mean –

Marcus Lillington:
So there is – yeah, I suppose what you’re saying there is, is there a case to have a separate mobile site that concentrates on the type of thing that the majority of users would use their mobile phone. The majority – I can’t speak properly either, I’ve caught it off you Paul. We could say, with mobile phones the majority of the time we check, we go onto the Internet to look up stuff…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
For simple stuff.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Not always, but the majority. So you – in theory you could argue therefore that there should be a separate mobile site to deal with that majority, but you can still access the other stuff. But it’s the – the priority of the design is different.

Paul Boag:
But that is – in theory that is achievable on a responsive site.

Marcus Lillington:
You can turn stuff off. Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yes, you can hide content, you can change the priority; I mean it is more work, but it is probably not more work than building a separate mobile site.

Leigh Howells:
You can optimize the mobile site more effectively though.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
And I know mobile first – well, from my experience, you still end up with a bigger download. And a less optimized page.

Paul Boag:
I see, optimized in terms of performance.

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Yes – no, I give you that. Nobody mentioned that interestingly.

Leigh Howells:
Really?

Paul Boag:
No. Ronny talks about – well, I suppose he touches on it vaguely. He says, I think the purpose of a site changes completely depending on what screen is opening up the page. No, I don’t necessarily agree with that. I haven’t seen a responsive site changing the purpose based on screen size. Therefore I think mobile still – sites still have a real reason to exist. So that’s not taking that argument about performance.

Leigh Howells:
No, changing the purpose based on screen size that’s – yeah.

Paul Boag:
I think he – this is the context document.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And then someone else takes the opposite position on that. What’s that last one, Marcus? How would you say that last one?

Marcus Lillington:
Oh sorry, I’m off doing emails. What was that?

Paul Boag:
What are you doing emails for while we’re recording a podcast?

Marcus Lillington:
That will be Mazurka.

Paul Boag:
Mazurka. My philosophy is that if content is not important enough for mobile users and only appears on a larger version of the site, is that content important at all, which is a fair comment.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
People will screen context, but how many users sit on their couch, or at their desk with a desktop or laptop right there but still browse on the phone? And I think that’s a fair comment. I think performance is possibly the best argument for a separate mobile site.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, if you wanted to really strip down, simple, flat, no database look ups, nothing; you want it to be super-fast, then I could imagine you could create a mobile specific mini site.

Paul Boag:
Rachel says something interesting mind. I think she is being much more pragmatic and real about it. Which is she says, going responsive has been a big success for us. No matter how many visitors the mobile site got, it was always likely to be a lower priority than a desktop and so neglected, which is true.

Marcus Lillington:
Or the other way round.

Paul Boag:
Yes, either way is equally bad, isn’t really? Well responsive removes that issue?

Leigh Howells:
Yes, totally. Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And also this issue around – I mean they are not insurmountable, but there are problems that need to be able to come in terms of URL for search engines – you know these awful situations…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Where search engine pick up the mobile site instead of the main site.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And then there is issues of somebody hitting the mobile site, but actually wanting the main site and all of that kind of thing, which all go away with responsive. For me, I think there are very few cases – I think I disagree with the house. Because the house says it proposes that where budgets allow organizations should create a separate mobile site and I think that’s a bit I disagree with. That it’s a budgetary issue. I think there are a few specific situations where, like with performance, where actually a separate site – or the sales example that Donald gave, I think it’s relevant there. But I think generally speaking I would agree with Paul Ledbrook who writes, if you have a separate mobile site do you need a separate website for tablets, or what about extra wide TV screens or one of the myriad of other devices out there? Surely responsive design is about creating a website that is device agnostic and serves the same content to whatever device it’s viewed on in the best possible way. A specific website for mobile is just more expensive and the overhead of management without a huge gain. Many big organizations can do it, but I don’t see a need for it any more. The actual physical device will soon become irrelevant as we’re targeting one type of device seems unnecessary.

And in actual fact, Brad Frost wrote a post recently – let’s see if I can find it – that I will put a link in the show notes for – and he actually said, you know, in that – he was saying look there are just so many devices now. I think he said that he was quoting – I can’t find the post, but I think he said there was something like 32 devices released this month alone. And you just – it’s impractical to think in those terms now. You have to think responsive…

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And to do – even – I mean you have even got to start challenging native apps on that basis. How on earth can you start accommodating so many different screen sizes, so many different hardware specs?

Leigh Howells:
Yeah and I’ve got the solution: all websites should be a single column of text centered. Solved.

Paul Boag:
Well perhaps really what we ought to do …

Leigh Howells:
Picture at the top.

Paul Boag:
We ought to go back to the very early days of the web; we should get rid of CSS entirely…

Leigh Howells:
Yes, great.

Paul Boag:
Just have – naked HTML documents.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah. It would work.

Paul Boag:
You know, and that we will work on every device there is ever known.

Leigh Howells:
We got too fancy, didn’t we?

Paul Boag:
We have.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a slight tangent, but I was sitting here thinking of facetious remarks, like well, just design for the iPhone then. And then I thought to myself, is it me or does it seem that there is a little bit of a kind of like people pushing away from the iPhone.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely. I mean in terms of –

Leigh Howells:
I pushed away from the iPhone.

Marcus Lillington:
Have you?

Leigh Howells:
It annoys me now because everyone has got an iPhone.

Marcus Lillington:
What’s wrong with that?

Leigh Howells:
And I don’t feel different anymore.

Marcus Lillington:
What’s wrong with that?

Leigh Howells:
Because everyone is like a clone, and everyone I look at has got an iPhone in their hand.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, but actually…

Marcus Lillington:
But if they’re good.

Paul Boag:
Percentage of the marketplace, iPhone isn’t actually that high. There are a lot more Android devices.

Marcus Lillington:
As a whole, yeah, yeah.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You know, if you take them as a whole and so actually I don’t think –

Marcus Lillington:
I had to use an Android device the other week.

Leigh Howells:
It depends on the device.

Marcus Lillington:
I nearly stamped on it.

Leigh Howells:
It depends on the device. It depends what they have – what the manufacturer has done to Android and it depends how the people using Android have got it set up as well, because it’s so customizable. It’s like the tweakers joy, you’re not locked down so you…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Leigh Howells:
You can make it a horrible experience because you can tweak.

Marcus Lillington:
It was horrid.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, it can be.

Paul Boag:
Yeah but the point is there, is you can’t just design for the iPhone because the iPhone is actually too small an audience …

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
These days and equally it’s too split a marketplace. You know, it’s not – there isn’t a kind of IE dominance…

Marcus Lillington:
No, no, no.

Paul Boag:
Like where I dominated 95% of the surface of the web at one point and I – even I disagreed with it on a philosophical basis, I could understand it from a business case of going, we’re just going to build for IE.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You know –

Marcus Lillington:
So, I’m going to get a new phone next week.

Leigh Howells:
I wonder what you’re going to get?

Marcus Lillington:
Which one should I get?

Leigh Howells:
You’re going to get a gold 5S, let’s face it.

Marcus Lillington:
A gold one.

Paul Boag:
Oh, don’t get a gold one.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, he is. You are a gold – gold phone owner, definitely.

Marcus Lillington:
A gold phone.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Leigh Howells:
To go with your gold car.

Paul Boag:
It’s a – I would say so.

Leigh Howells:
It’s not gold I know.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not gold; it’s grey.

Paul Boag:
I would say it’s a really difficult decision in your case because –

Leigh Howells:
It’s a real first world decision, yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s really difficult decision? What – no it’s not, I’ll get an iPhone.

Paul Boag:
Yes, yeah, yeah. But in terms of – whether you get the C or the –

Leigh Howells:
I presumed the color.

Paul Boag:
The S.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh I’ll get the S. I can’t have the – the –

Leigh Howells:
So your dilemma is actually space grey, champagne, or black. Is that the dilemma?

Marcus Lillington:
No. I don’t have any – oh, the C is cheaper, so I can’t have the cheaper one.

Paul Boag:.
But – no – but actually –

Leigh Howells:
Not a lot cheaper.

Paul Boag:
But to be honest the only difference that you – with the S you will get a better camera..

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah – use my camera loads.

Paul Boag:
Which is a big one.

Paul Boag:
I would – that would be the big argument. Fingerprint scanner is a novelty, in my opinion.

Marcus Lillington:
See, I don’t even know what the differences are. Here we go, right, yeah tell me.

Leigh Howells:
Oh no, we’re doing the iPhone lowdown thing, aren’t we? I’ve heard so much of this this week.

Paul Boag:
I know it’s dumb, isn’t it. But –

Leigh Howells:
Let’s do it again; go on, carry on.

Paul Boag:
The fingerprint scanner in my opinion is a bit of a novelty. Yes it might get interesting further down the line when you can start making payments on your phone and stuff like that. But –

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, yeah okay, cool. But better camera…

Paul Boag:
Better camera.

Marcus Lillington:
Is really important for me.

Leigh Howells:
And then the only other one –

Marcus Lillington:
I’ll take pictures with it all the time.

Leigh Howells:
It’s still a shit camera compared to a £100 point and shoot but you know it has been processed the hell out of…

Marcus Lillington:
I disagree.

Leigh Howells:
So it’s great. Looks all right.

Marcus Lillington:
I took some fantastic photos, because I forgot to take my £300 point and shoot, which is amazing granted, when I went to Cornwall last week and still took some brilliant pictures using my crappy iPhone.

Leigh Howells:
That’s just because it has been processed to death. But –

Paul Boag:
Yes, it’s a good…

Leigh Howells:
Look at the size of the optics, look at the size of the actual sensor, it’s teeny.

Paul Boag:
But it takes a good picture.

Marcus Lillington:
It still takes a good picture.

Leigh Howells:
It’s a good thing to have in your pocket, yeah I agree.

Paul Boag:
It’s the old argument.

Leigh Howells:
It is.

Marcus Lillington:
Anyway yes, Paul. Before we are rudely interrupted.

Paul Boag:
There is a new chip that is …

Leigh Howells:
64 bit.

Marcus Lillington:
It has got chips in it?

Paul Boag:
It has got – now that sells it to you. Well actually this is the complete opposite of that, which is it has a new chip in it, which helps you get fit. It’s got a – one that’s dedicated to fitness devices, you don’t care about that. And it has a faster processor, which is good for gaming, intense games but you don’t do intense games…

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
You do like, you know, scrabble.

Marcus Lillington:
Scrabble, yeah, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Which doesn’t need a big processor.

Marcus Lillington:
Old man’s game.

Paul Boag:
So other than the camera – and the camera – what we have got at the moment? Have you got an i4–

Marcus Lillington:
4S.

Paul Boag:
A 4S, see the camera on the C – 5C is going to better than what you’ve got at the moment.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I’m still going to go for the 5S, of course I’m.

Leigh Howells:
But I think a 5 would be a better and cheaper upgrade. If they are still around there may be some good deals on those…

Paul Boag:
No, they’re getting rid of those, aren’t they?

Leigh Howells:
No, no but there will be some good deals on those.

Paul Boag:
Oh there will be, yes. Because it will be old stock.

Leigh Howells:
It would still be a massive upgrade.

Marcus Lillington:
Anyway okay. It has got a better camera. The best camera is in the S.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m having that one.

Leigh Howells:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Full stop. In Gold.

Leigh Howells:
It does – it has a higher frame… Yeah, do gold.

Paul Boag:
Anybody that gets gold.

Marcus Lillington:
Paul, you know what I’m like. There is no chance of me getting that gold phone.

Paul Boag:
It’s a chance for me to be a bigoted again. Anybody that gets gold is a chav. There we go.

Leigh Howells:
It’s not gold, it’s champagne.

Paul Boag:
I know, which is even worse.

Leigh Howells:
It’s like a slightly dusty gold.

Paul Boag:
It’s disgusting. It’s repulsive.

Leigh Howells:
Have you seen it in real life?

Paul Boag:
No, I haven’t.

Leigh Howells:
So you’re commenting on something you haven’t even seen.

Paul Boag:
So, I am bigoted.

Marcus Lillington:
Again. Certainly hasn’t stopped him in the past.

Leigh Howells:
That’s true.

Paul Boag:
I just – I quite liked the colour ones.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah, yeah, it was nice.

Marcus Lillington:
Interestingly, neither of you said oh, you should get the Samsung blah or the Sony blah, blah.

Paul Boag:
Well that’s because –

Leigh Howells:
I like –

Paul Boag:
You immediately said I’m only going to get an iPhone.

Leigh Howells:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
But you didn’t even try to sell me…

Leigh Howells:
I would wait for the Nexus 5, which will be a big – if I – because I like bigger screens. For me the iPhone is just too small and I want a bigger screen so HTC 1, very good.

Paul Boag:
But you’ve got an iPad Mini…

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve got an iPad Mini.

Paul Boag:
Why would you want –

Marcus Lillington:
So.

Leigh Howells:
Because I like to have – carry around and – I can’t carry my iPad Mini around in my pocket.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. You can just about in the back pocket, but then you break it when you sit down.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, when you sit down it goes crunch. Anyway, I don’t really care, I’m getting an iPhone.

Leigh Howells:
Yes, there we go.

Marcus Lillington:
Right.

Paul Boag:
Pointless talking about, we could be going and visiting the barn while you are faffing around with that…

Leigh Howells:
That was 10 minutes of extra waffle.

Marcus Lillington:
We’re at the barn.

Paul Boag:
Not the barn, I shouldn’t be doing a podcast today; I am bigoted and incoherent.

Marcus Lillington:
Shall I do a very quick joke, very quick joke?

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Here we go. I got stung by a bee the other day; £20 for a jar of honey.

Paul Boag:
That’s terrible.

Leigh Howells:
Wasn’t as good as the Sicily joke.

Marcus Lillington:
That was from Sam Ellis. Don’t be Sicily.

Paul Boag:
Okay. That’s the best joke of all time.

Leigh Howells:
Fantastic. I repeated that lots of places, it’s great. It might be a joke I can remember.

Paul Boag:
Do you want to know what’s on next week, does anybody care?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I don’t know, because I haven’t got it in front of me. Here we go.

Marcus Lillington:
Wrong answer, no.

Paul Boag:
This week – next week even, we’re going to be talking about, this house proposes that third-party CSS frameworks should not be used on live sites. That’s a good one.

Leigh Howells:
Okay. That’s very good.

Paul Boag:
And the other one is, this house proposes that accessibility shouldn’t be allowed to hold back innovation.

Marcus Lillington:
Ooh, ooh, ooh, that’s a good one.

Leigh Howells:
Right good.

Paul Boag:
That will be a really interesting one, that one. I have just posted literally as – while we’ve been sitting here, the one about frameworks has just gone live. So I will be interested to see whether – what comments we get on that. So yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Cool.

Paul Boag:
Good stuff for next week. I’m looking forward to next week’s. It’s better than this week’s and we aren’t – we’re not in so much of a hurry and I will be less –

Marcus Lillington:
And Leigh won’t be here.

Leigh Howells:
And I won’t be here so it will be much better.

Paul Boag:
Leigh won’t be here and I’ll be less bigoted so then – so that’s good all around. All right. Thank you very much for listening and I apologize for the poor performance this week. We shall return next week and it will be much improved.

Leigh Howells:
Without me.

Paul Boag:
Without Leigh.

Leigh Howells:
Thank you very much. Good bye.

Marcus Lillington:
Bye, bye.

- Brad Frost on the plethora of mobile devices

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