Boagworld Show S07E06

Web & Digital Advice

Digital and web advice from Headscape and the addled brain of Paul Boag... tell me more

Paul Boag Posted by: Paul Boag On Friday, 18th October, 2013

Open Mobile

This week on the Boagworld web design podcast, learning from mobile navigation and embracing open source.

Season 7:
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Paul Boag:
This week on the Boagworld web design podcast: learning from mobile navigation and embracing open source.

Hello and welcome to boagworld.com, the podcast for all those involved in designing, developing and running websites on a daily basis. My name is Paul Boag and joining me today as always is Marcus Lillington.

Marcus Lillington:
Hello, Paul. How are you?

Paul Boag:
Very well. Very well. Well, not very well. I like to …

Marcus Lillington:
You’re looking a bit sickly.

Paul Boag:
Well I have man flu and I’ve being share this on Twitter all the different stages of my pain and misery, but I’m better now.

Marcus Lillington:
No one cares?

Paul Boag:
No, they really didn’t. And I got no sympathy at all as well.

Marcus Lillington:
Especially not from home?

Paul Boag:
Absolutely. Now I’m a little bit sad. Well I’m sad? I’m both sad and happy. It’s our last one in the barn; last podcast being recorded in the barn.

Marcus Lillington:
I have already left this place.

Paul Boag:
I know, actually I have. I don’t know why I said I’m sad. It’s like – it’s a dump, it’s like kind of everything is half taken down and it’s all just a bit of a mess and now our new spangly office is looking really good and …

Marcus Lillington:
It is. I was there yesterday. I popped in.

Paul Boag:
Did you?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Popped in?

Marcus Lillington:
I did. I popped in on my way home. This is good. I can drive to our new office on my way home from this office. That means it’s nearer.

Paul Boag:
That it does. It’s nearer for you, further for me, but there we go that’s life. No I think what most distresses me about leaving the barn is that in theory I now need to replace the header graphic on Boagworld.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
But I can’t be bothered.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s a very good point.

Paul Boag:
It’s going to stay there.

Marcus Lillington:
Can we just have a like in – I don’t know a brown block

Paul Boag:
Yes, something useful like that.

Marcus Lillington:
A flat color.

Paul Boag:
Yes, that’s the in thing is now. I should just make it all flat.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. It’s quite flat anyways.

Paul Boag:
It is. It’s almost Pixel Art, so yes.

Marcus Lillington:
No I mean the whole site.

Paul Boag:
No, it’s got droppy shadowy bits and it’s not flat design. It’s kind of – it’s all right. It does the job. Keeps me out of trouble.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, there is a little bit of shadow, but it’s not – yeah, no there is.

Paul Boag:
No, it’s very old fashioned now, according to the latest trend.

Marcus Lillington:
But I have to …

Paul Boag:
But it’s representative of me, old fashioned.

Marcus Lillington:
Old fashioned?

Paul Boag:
And not in line with the latest trend.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
So works well. You were going to say something?

Marcus Lillington:
I have to announce…

Paul Boag:
Oh dear.

Marcus Lillington:
Two new sites that we have – that Headscape has built. One I should’ve announced last week, but I was still in kind of mustn’t talk about it.

Paul Boag:
Since when have we announced sites? You’re only doing this because the client wants you to mention it, because she’s excited.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, one of them does and one of them probably doesn’t, might maybe Laura does listen to this, I don’t know, but I don’t think she does. So I’m evening it out and announcing two.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay? And also …

Paul Boag:
You’re also grouping them together?

Marcus Lillington:
One won’t mean anything to people in the U.K. and the other one won’t mean anything to people in America. So I’m kind of like doing a U.S. and U.K. thing.

Paul Boag:
So what about people in Australia? We have a lot of people that listen in Australia by the way.

Marcus Lillington:
Really? Well, I don’t know.

Paul Boag:
Well, by a lot of people, obviously I mean two.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, two.

Paul Boag:
Out of the 10.

Marcus Lillington:
Which – that’s a quite big percentage.

Paul Boag:
We are at 10 now, aren’t we?

Marcus Lillington:
It might even be 11.

Paul Boag:
Has it gone up?

Marcus Lillington:
I’m not sure.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Marcus Lillington:
I made that up.

Paul Boag:
Well, the whole things matter.

Marcus Lillington:
Do you know – yes, 10 listeners.

Paul Boag:
Well, let’s don’t be silly.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve got – well, I just had another tangent. I’ve had lots of jokes sent to me this week. Thank you people. I will name you all later.

Paul Boag:
Good.

Marcus Lillington:
I won’t do all the jokes.

Paul Boag:
So go and get through this party political broadcast or public announcement.

Marcus Lillington:
No, I was just going to say about the Australian one. When – well I will do the U.K. one first, because it’s a …

Paul Boag:
I have – this is going to really upset the U.S. client.

Marcus Lillington:
Why?

Paul Boag:
Because I really like the U.K. one we’ve done.

Marcus Lillington:
I really like them both very much so.

Paul Boag:
Well, yes. I’ve got – I think it’s the subject matter with the other one.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly. Yes, I mean that’s fair enough if you’re doing a stately home or a bland office building website, then the stately home ones going to look nicer.

Paul Boag:
Yes. So the two clients are in America. It is …

Marcus Lillington:
A law firm called Dickstein Shapiro, dicksteinshapiro.com.

Paul Boag:
The great thing about Dickstein Shapiro when you go there is you feel like you’re in an episode of Ally Mcbeal, without Ally Mcbeal.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
We didn’t meet – did we meet any female attorneys?

Marcus Lillington:
I have never met an attorney.

Paul Boag:
Have you not?

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
You never been there to do stakeholder interviews?

Marcus Lillington:
I didn’t go. I didn’t do the first sessions.

Paul Boag:
They’re great.

Marcus Lillington:
I got involved afterwards.

Paul Boag:
I really liked the attorneys, because there was a kind of mixture. They all felt like…

Marcus Lillington:
Is that by implication you don’t like the marketing people?

Paul Boag:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
Because you just said that.

Paul Boag:
No, I didn’t say that. Cindy I love you deeply, you know that. No, no – they were just fascinating character, they all felt like stereotypes, every single one of them with some form of kind of American lawyer stereotype. There was the kind of young go getting type with that chiseled jaw and the smart suit. And then there was the kind of weary beaten down, been in this too long bloodshot eyes type and then there was the kind of obese been too many rich meals with fancy clients type.

Marcus Lillington:
At every lunch time.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. So it was all the kind of different stereotype, it was fascinating. And of course then you asked the question in the stakeholder meeting and they all say, so what you mean by this word? And they would like cross-examine you. It was quite fun to do.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
It’s scary working for a law firm because you think one false step and that’s it, we are going to be sued out of existence.

Marcus Lillington:
We have been saying that ever since we started working for them. It’s like an in-joke here. We are going to be out of business next week when they decide to crush us like a…

Paul Boag:
Like an ant.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I mean it doesn’t matter. It wouldn’t matter; to be honest it wouldn’t matter whether we have done a perfect job. If they decided to sue us, we’d be out of business and let’s face it.

Marcus Lillington:
But anyway the site is worth a visit. There is lots of responsive loveliness going on with quite as Dan …

Paul Boag:
Parallax

Marcus Lillington:
… as Dan will confess, it’s quite complicated in places. But yes it’s a …

Paul Boag:
Leigh got carried away when he was designing it and poor old Dan had to then build it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
It’s essentially what happened.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s exactly what happened, but what I like about it is it’s very clear to the point. It does bam bam bam and that’s the kind of things that we felt after lots of research with the client about what their users want and I think it’s quite clear.

Paul Boag:
Actually these two sites really kind of demonstrate how much a client does and indeed should influence the website, because they couldn’t be a lot different, could they really?

Marcus Lillington:
No.

Paul Boag:
On one hand, so you have got Dickstein, which has got – this really kind of corporate kind of power website like you would expect.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a little bit fun in places as well.

Paul Boag:
Yes, it is. They’ve got a bit, but it is certainly …

Marcus Lillington:
It’s a corporate thing yes.

Paul Boag:
… you can trust us, we’re a safe pair hands and then on the other side of it is Chelsea pensioners is the other side of the…

Marcus Lillington:
It’s the Royal Hospital Chelsea, the other site and their url is chelsea-pensioners.co.uk or org.uk works as well, but it’s a bit of a weird. I won’t go into the boringness of it.

Paul Boag:
Because I’m sure that is boring.

Marcus Lillington:
But anyway chelsea-pensioners.co.uk and this is why I think will mean nothing to the American audience. Basically the Chelsea pensioners are really famous.

Paul Boag:
They’re like an institution aren’t they?

Marcus Lillington:
Whenever the Queen does something big, they’re always there lined up in their red coats.

Paul Boag:
But essentially it’s an old people’s home ?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, for soldiers. For ex-soldiers.

Paul Boag:
But they’ve got these cool uniforms that they wear and it’s kind of – it’s this weird, because I didn’t – I wasn’t involved with this project. So I was actually looking around the site and I was watching the video and stuff and it’s this weird hybrid between an old people’s home, which is in a massive stately home. It couldn’t be more British.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s the most gorgeous. I mean it’s designed by Sir Christopher Wren, it’s right by the Thames. It’s where they have the Chelsea flower show.

Paul Boag:
Exactly. So it’s kind of an old people’s home, but it’s kind of still like military barracks, it’s got that kind of feel to it. But and it also like little self-contained flat type thing and it’s almost like a boarding school as well as it’s got that kind of vibe to it as well.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I mean where they have their meals is like the big hall in Hogwarts, isn’t it, essentially.

Marcus Lillington:
I have eaten in there and …

Paul Boag:
Have you really?

Marcus Lillington:
… that is exactly what it’s like. It’s exactly like that. It is Hogwarts. You expect to – what’s his name Dumbledore to come out of a high plinth, no it’s not plinth is it, on the balcony at the end.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
I couldn’t find the right words, but it’s – what’s really wonderful about the place is the first thing we did when we started working for them was have a tour with one of the pensioners.

Paul Boag:
I would have loved that.

Marcus Lillington:
And basically that idea of that kind of boarding school, they’re all like little kids.

Paul Boag:
Yes. I bet they are. You can – even though it’s a really serious video that they have on the site, it all looks very proper, very military. You know that every night they are pranking one another and acting like children the whole time.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, I mean it’s worth going – I’ll find the page. There’s a page called “how you can help” which is basically the donation call to action because people in the U.K. think that the army or the government owns it and runs it.

Paul Boag:
But no, they don’t.

Marcus Lillington:
There is – government does provide some funding but they need basically about £2 million a year just to keep the place going.

Paul Boag:
Because they don’t charge that much – I mean, they’ve got their rates, on what was that £175 a week.

Marcus Lillington:
No, no, no, no. Basically you give up your pension.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I know which is remarkable.

Marcus Lillington:
There’s no charge.

Paul Boag:
No, there’s different ways of doing, isn’t it? Either you give up your pension – your military pension or if you don’t do that you pay 100 – I’ve read the site. Probably more then you have but the point is…

Marcus Lillington:
Paul I’ve done lots of work on this site

Paul Boag:
For where it is, and what they get, that you know it’s worth a lot more than that. I couldn’t believe….

Marcus Lillington:
It’s an amazing place. But obviously if you read – I was going to say go and have a look at anything. Go and look on how you can help page and look at the video, the video called Allen’s story which – it’s a sad story but you realize the situation that these guys have gone into to end up there.

Paul Boag:
Yeah

Marcus Lillington:
And then they end up surrounded by kind of effectively old comrades

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
So it’s a wonderful, wonderful place.

Paul Boag:
Oh! Absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
And a great project to work on.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Absolutely I’m quite envious of you because I didn’t get to work on this – you know be involved with this project. And of course – it’s a designer’s dream because it’s beautiful imagery. All these guys, they have these red tunics and black kind of military outfits that they wear. And then this amazing building and the royalty are always visiting it and it just looks stunning as a site. You know what it reminds me, it reminds me of the old National Trust site we did back in the day.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Essentially Ed’s gone, just put a frigging big image on there, hasn’t he? That’s what he’s done.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Get out of the way, show a massive big image and that does the job.

Marcus Lillington:
But it’s all manageable via Drupal as well which is a nice thing.

Paul Boag:
So is Dickstein isn’t it. Dickstein Shapiro, both Drupal sites. So poor old Ian has been busy.

Marcus Lillington:
He really has been busy.

Paul Boag:
Releasing two websites back to back. Good for him. Anyway…

Marcus Lillington:
Enough, enough about that. But they’re both cool things.

Paul Boag:
I think what gets me it’s the – it’s not so much the websites and us promoting the websites. It’s the clients and the experience, that’s one thing I love about this job, is you get to work with all kinds of completely different kinds of companies. One minute you are dealing with Ally McBeal the next minute you are dealing with Dad’s Army. I was trying to think of another stereotype there. And that’s brilliant and that’s really good. And you get to enter these little different worlds that exist and it’s fascinating.

Marcus Lillington:
Absolutely.

Paul Boag:
I love it. Shall we talk about debate topics, that’s going to be quite boring after this really. I’m not – just to let you know, I would probably turn off the podcast at this point because I’m not that interested in the debate topics today. They’re not really doing it for me…

Marcus Lillington:
Make different ones then.

Paul Boag:
Well it’s too late. I’ve got – it’s all scheduled I announced it last week if you remember.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah but you announced it the week before and it was the wrong ones. So let’s just make something else.

Paul Boag:
These are just that ones that I’ve got feedback on. I haven’t got feedback on any other. I mean

Marcus Lillington:
All right, yeah, fair enough.

Paul Boag:
I guess I could make up the feedback: Bill from New Jersey says…

Marcus Lillington:
We’ve never done that before?

Paul Boag:
No, we haven’t. Not for a long-long time. But I won’t say never. Okay, let’s move on.

Should we learn from mobile navigation?

This house proposes that larger screen sites need to learn from mobile design and hide navigation in order to remove clutter.

Have your say

So first debate subject. Yeah, this is an interesting one. Somebody suggested this to me and I can’t – is that a horse. A horse has just walked by me without an owner.

Marcus Lillington:
No, it did have a rider.

Paul Boag:
Oh because nobody was on its back. There was nobody on its back.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, there was.

Paul Boag:
There was someone leading it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. All right, okay.

Paul Boag:
But I couldn’t see that. All I see was this horse wandering down. Welcome to wherever the hell we are. I was going to say Dorset.

Marcus Lillington:
This is Hampshire but only just

Paul Boag:
See we are not going to have that in Winchester. We’re not going to have horses wandering by the door.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t know we might

Paul Boag:
Do you reckon we’ll get a lot of traffic noise as well when we record the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Well we’re having secondary double-glazing fitted.

Paul Boag:
Oh are we?

Marcus Lillington:
So yeah, probably not.

Paul Boag:
Okay. I didn’t know we’re getting that.

Marcus Lillington:
And we’re also right up on the second floor. So

Paul Boag:
We are right in the…

Marcus Lillington:
And also…

Paul Boag:
We’re not going to ever get round to these debate things.

Marcus Lillington:
The traffic is slowing down at some lights outside our window.

Paul Boag:
Right.

Marcus Lillington:
So, it’s not going roar up a hill or anything.

Paul Boag:
Right, it’s lots of idling traffic.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. It shouldn’t be too bad. Maybe in the summer when it’s really hot and we’ll want to open a window or something like that.

Paul Boag:
I’d say our biggest problem will be everybody else because they will be closer to – the other people we work with will be within earshot

Marcus Lillington:
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. I suspect they will think it’s the other way round.

Paul Boag:
Oh, yeah, that’s what I thought of then. It’s like they’re going to get sick of hearing us, aren’t they?

Marcus Lillington:
More so than they do now.

Paul Boag:
More so. Okay, so our first – yeah our first debate topic was suggested by some – but I confess I can’t remember who. So that’s a good start there. Well done, Paul. And basically he was looking at the idea of mobile navigation and about how our websites – when we do a responsive site and we get down small, you end up with that kind of – your navigation is kind of crunched down under a single icon, isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Instead of it taking up the whole screen. And someone proposed well why don’t we do that all the time? Why do we just do that on a mobile site? The reason we do it on a mobile site is to get rid of clutter, to clean up the interface because we’ve got less space. But actually don’t we want a clean website all the time. Don’t we want to focus on the content all of the time? Why are we only doing that when we’re talking about a mobile site. So this house proposes that larger screen sites needs to learn from mobile design and hide navigation in order to remove clutter. That was the subject that was being proposed. What’s your thought, Marcus?

Marcus Lillington:
I was thinking about this while you were just talking there. I think, I don’t agree with that statement blankly.

Paul Boag:
Right

Marcus Lillington:
Because navigation is useful and hiding it is a bit daft. But…

Paul Boag:
A brilliant insightful analysis there.

Marcus Lillington:
No, no, no, but where I am going with this is being able to hide it is a different thing entirely.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Because once you keep going back somewhere then you don’t necessarily – you might always go to the same place. So therefore you do want to remove clutter but making that a user choice I think, I’d agree with.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. It was interesting…

Marcus Lillington:
But not just removing it out of – just having a little tiny icon…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Up on the top left or whatever – of a screen.

Paul Boag:
It was kind of interesting the way the conversation went with it because, to be honest, I think people kind of went down the same route that you’ve gone with of saying, well yeah, I mean it’s quite nice to be able to remove clutter but – and then they go into this big debate about that little hamburger icon. I don’t know why they call it a hamburger icon. The three lines.

Marcus Lillington:
The three lines. Yeah. The Mystery Meat, I haven’t heard that term in a long time.

Paul Boag:
No exactly. And it is the ultimate Mystery Meat because it’s a hamburger. Well I suppose it’s not a mystery then is it, it’s meat. But then people started saying, you kind of suggested this idea of maybe like you’ve just said, you can hide it away and it reminded me of sitepoint.com, years and years back, way before this mobile stuff and they used to have that where you could slide a sidebar on and off basically and just focus then on the content. I always thought that was a really good idea actually.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And then we got a few people, not many people thought this was a good idea. There was a couple of people. Is it – there are unpronounceable names. People just make up names.

Marcus Lillington:
Mizerka.

Paul Boag:
Mizerka suggested that it was nice aesthetically because it removed clutter which I absolutely agree with and you know there was – actually someone else suggested that it’s something we’re already beginning to see. Apparently Squarespace do that, I haven’t actually looked at Squarespace, just want to look at their website to see whether

Marcus Lillington:
They go on to say they don’t like the Mystery Meat hamburger icon. I actually do because it’s becoming…

Paul Boag:
A standard.

Marcus Lillington:
A convention and I think people do understand what it is. But I still don’t think when you’ve got the space you should hide it by default.

Paul Boag:
I mean the way Squarespace do it, if you check out Squarespace, actually it’s really quite nice. I really quite like what Squarespace have done. They’ve got the hamburger icon and they have the word menu written by it, so you are under no illusions what’s there and you click it and the navigation slides in from the side, which I think looks really good. Now whether you want to have it slid on by default and then it disappears or you can click to make it disappear is up to you, but I actually – I can see a value in that. It cleans up the interface, makes it all look very nice.

Marcus Lillington:
Depends on the – if you’ve got what they’ve got, a really big call to action and the menu is a bit of an afterthought, I am guessing, but it’s not – most – I’m again making sweeping statements, but most websites tend to have a navigation that is as important as anything else on the homepage. I made that up. But whereas I think these guys it’s – they want people to create their own space. The rest of it is developers, mobile apps, pricing; pricing is important.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. I am not necessarily sure I agree with that. I think you saw – I mean take for example I just picked at random, I happen to have Chelsea Pensioners site open, right? And actually on that site the main navigation could be hidden away so you focus on the three central calls to action, which are become a Chelsea Pensioner, hire the venue or how you can help us.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So actually – let’s try Dickstein see whether it would have worked with Dickstein. I mean I am not 100% convinced. And yeah in Dickstein I think the menu is more important on that actually. There isn’t a strong call to action. Yeah, you are, it’s all about how strong a call to action there is, isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Because you could argue that in some cases the navigation actually distracts people away from what you want people to do. The one big thing.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Then in that case, then, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Interesting. That’s a very good analysis, Marcus. Almost like you know what you’re talking about.

Marcus Lillington:
Almost.

Paul Boag:
Let’s have a look, what else have we got.

Marcus Lillington:
I am looking at the Squarespace.

Paul Boag:
No, I am looking under my list of agrees and disagrees because that’s how I divide up the comments. And one of my agrees is referring to a completely different question and I’ve pasted it in the wrong place. So that one is useless. So there is very few people actually agree with this.

Marcus Lillington:
Let’s move on to the disagrees then, Paul.

Paul Boag:
I think we’re going to have to because apparently there aren’t many. In fact this was quite an interesting one. A lot of people did come down – very few people kind of just agreed with it wholesale. And I can see why, it is not a wholesale agree thing is it. I mean even when we were saying, you know, oh, yes, in these cases it might work. Chris says, as far as desktops, tablet sites are concerned I see no advantage at all. A well thought out menu promotes the most common elements of a business. The elements are worth presenting in front of someone at every opportunity. So he is basically proposing that actually and I can see where he is coming from that, this – the only time that this is useful is if your navigation is not as good as it should be because your navigation should be your call to action really. You could argue that, which is – it’s quite good argument. Tim says, navigation should be just that. It needs to navigate the site, hiding it away completely nullifies its purpose.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes and no. As we’ve just discussed it depends on the importance of it.

Paul Boag:
Because there are different – with your content on the site there are different scenarios. Some content is more important than others because some content is aimed at a niche audience that may be, you know you don’t want their content to get in the way of everyone else. I mean the example I always think about is the approach we took with Wiltshire Farm Foods with their navigation. So they had all these different categories of meals and 80% of their sales came from 20% of the categories. So in the end we decided to just show the 20% and then the rest were hidden away under and option, so the remainder didn’t distract from those users that were looking for the majority of stuff. Because that can often be the problem in navigation. You end up with lots of niche things in it. So it kind of gets around that problem I guess. And then yeah, I mean this is a really important point. I agree with this from Alastic, how would you say that?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s Alast I think.

Paul Boag:
Alast.

Marcus Lillington:
Alast, I don’t know.

Paul Boag:
We don’t know. He says, it’s similar to the old usability problem with dropdown menus. If you hide options, people won’t choose them as they don’t get the information sent and that’s something that is straight out of Steve Krug’s book. And it’s probably a very valid point and I can’t really argue with that. And then Penny says, I get confused myself when I come across a site being cute with its menus. I like the way she words that. It’s kind of novelty for novelty’s sake, isn’t it. My clients wouldn’t be too happy if their website visitors left because they couldn’t find a menu. Understanding your audience, trumps design semantics in my book regardless of the platform. Absolutely, you got to think about who your audience is. It’s fine if you are aiming at us because we will know what the hamburger icon means but does that apply to everyone.

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
So let’s see what other points we got coming up. Some other people kind of threw in some points that I couldn’t really define as yes or no. They were just kind of statements. Ben said, for example, testing is the only way to truly understand this, which follows on from Penny.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Boag:
You just got to try and see what happens. Jamie said, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie Lion Jamie said, has anyone actually tested it. Is there any research on it and I had a little look around and I couldn’t find anything. And again he suggests that his opinion will be strongly influenced by testing. But he says apparently the BBC have done some work on this, the BBC radio application and he says the rough outcomes were that many people didn’t understand the three lines icon. So there is still problems with that even though it’s beginning to emerge as standard. Many people didn’t know how to dismiss the menu once it’s loaded. So didn’t realize you could click on it again to make it go away which is an interesting point.

Marcus Lillington:
Are they stupid? Joking. Carry on.

Paul Boag:
See this kind of attitude that gets me. Customizing the menu was a popular feature but custom navigation has traditionally performed poorly. So in other words, on the BBC very few users actually customize navigation options. In other words, they don’t want to be able to expand or contract it.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, on the BBC sport app you can actually customize the navigation…

Paul Boag:
What appears and what doesn’t.

Marcus Lillington:
What appears and what doesn’t. Exactly.

Paul Boag:
Yes, so if you are not interesting in any sport you can hide all the tabs.

Marcus Lillington:
Indeed.

Paul Boag:
Like me.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Somebody invited me to watch a football match on Saturday.

Marcus Lillington:
Which one?

Paul Boag:
I don’t know. I just wrote back and said, I’d prefer to poke needles through my eyeballs

Marcus Lillington:
Which one though? That really does matter.

Paul Boag:
It was England versus somewhere beginning with M. I don’t know. I might be making that up. I really didn’t pay any attention. Do you want me to get out the email?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
What? It’s ..

Marcus Lillington:
I might have to tell you off, this is why

Paul Boag:
Alright, so you want to be able to tell me off. No it wasn’t – it was only on tele…

Marcus Lillington:
That’s rubbish.

Paul Boag:
No. I was not going. No I wasn’t…

Marcus Lillington:
If you were offered tickets to go and see a Premiership football game.

Paul Boag:
Oh I’d still say no.

Marcus Lillington:
Then that would be worth going once because it’s really quite an amazing atmosphere.

Paul Boag:
No, it isn’t.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes it is.

Paul Boag:
No. I am not in the slightest bit interested. I prefer to go to a concert if I want that kind of amazing atmosphere.

Marcus Lillington:
Different, it’s a different thing.

Paul Boag:
Yes, full of thugs and idiots. Bigoted Boag strikes back. Right, yes, anybody that likes football or any just kind of sport is a – what did I say?

Marcus Lillington:
A clever person?

Paul Boag:
A thug and an idiot.

Marcus Lillington:
That will be me then.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Well there you go perfectly demonstrate it. So yeah, I thought it was quite interesting Jamie talking about BBC and what they do. And then it was – there was a Kate that talked about from a risk management perspective the thought of losing support should the community that’s…

Marcus Lillington:
What. You put the wrong one in there again. Haven’t you?

Paul Boag:
Yeah that’s supposed to be…

Marcus Lillington:
Hopelessly unprofessional, what you need to do is, get into more sport.

Paul Boag:
Would that make me cleverer?

Marcus Lillington:
It probably would.

Paul Boag:
It might wake me up.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
That is really, I just, you know, I just don’t give a toss anymore. That’s what it is. It’s not incompetence, it is pure laziness, that’s what it comes down to. Let’s read Sam and hope that his comment is about the right thing. From where I am typing this into the comments field onto the Boagworld.com website, I am already at least one button push away from accessing the navigation. You can take the page from mobile without just porting outside. You can take a page out of mobile is what he meant to say without just porting the context free menu icon straight across. For example, you could have a menu label that’s tethered so that, you know, it’s always available to you and I quite like that idea.

Marcus Lillington:
Chelsea Pensioners does that.

Paul Boag:
It does, doesn’t it? Yes. That was one of the things that I like about it. There’s a lot of things I like about that site.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Although I am very biased because I am a fan of Ed’s design style. I like Ed, not as a human being, obviously, but just as a designer.

Marcus Lillington:
I think you like it because I worked on it.

Paul Boag:
Were you responsible for any of the visual elements on the site? What did you do? You say you worked on it. I’ve just written a blog post.

Marcus Lillington:
You say you worked on it.

Paul Boag:
No, I’ve just written a blog post.

Marcus Lillington:
I just swanned around, Paul.

Paul Boag:
Answering the most common questions I get asked which is what the hell do you do, Paul? So I am asking you this question now, Marcus. On this project, other than buttering up the client and going for jollies and eating in Hogwarts, what do you actually do? What did you do on this project to justify a claim to it?

Marcus Lillington:
I managed it. No I did the information architecture and I did the prioritization of content with the client and I actually wrote a bit of the copy as well.

Paul Boag:
Oh, which bit did you write?

Marcus Lillington:
I can’t tell you that.

Paul Boag:
Why? Because you think I’ll pick it apart?

Marcus Lillington:
No, I didn’t do much. I did more editing.

Paul Boag:
So you are responsible for the complicated two levels of navigation that’s going on here.

Marcus Lillington:
Correct. And also for the main calls to action and the order of them, the order of the menu, all of that stuff. Is that allowed? Am I allowed a credit for that?

Paul Boag:
No, the reason I’ve gone quiet is because I am looking in it trying to pick holes – I’m actually struggling, it’s not too bad. Well done.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not too bad. Thanks, Paul.

Paul Boag:
Well, I kind of – let’s not get carried away but you’ve done a reasonable job…

Marcus Lillington:
An okay job.

Paul Boag:
…for an amateur.

Marcus Lillington:
Fine, thank you.

Paul Boag:
So there we go. That subject, I think we managed to draw that out long enough. Shall we move on to the – although caused by moving on to the next one, we’ve covered half the points in this one that I copied and pasted in the wrong place. So you already know what Kate thinks things, for example.

Why use a proprietary, licensed content management system?

This house proposes that clients should stop paying for licensed, proprietary content management solutions and embrace open source.

Have your say

Okay, I’m trying to energize myself.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah wuw!

Paul Boag:
Wuw! That’s the American – that was a funny thing. Come on I’m allowed to say this.

Marcus Lillington:
What?

Paul Boag:
Going back to Dickstein Shapiro, right? So…

Marcus Lillington:
I am not sure that you are. I don’t know what are you going to say.

Paul Boag:
They are going to sue us out of existence anyway, so what the hell? No, it’s the fact that one of the – as a little side thing to this product they were doing a big launch event, weren’t they?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, yes.

Paul Boag:
Which scares the crap out of me whenever a client does that because it’s not the way to launch a website in my opinion but they were doing a big branding re-launch.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, it wasn’t just the website

Paul Boag:
It wasn’t just a website. And one of the things that they asked us to do as part of this big thing is to create video, didn’t they?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. I kind of suggested it.

Paul Boag:
Oh did you suggest that?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
So it’s all your fault then.

Marcus Lillington:
It is my fault.

Paul Boag:
So Leigh was like a pig in shit because he loves doing that kind of thing, doesn’t he? So we put together a kinetic typography type video.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve loved working on that. Probably as much as doing the RHC thing. I mean I wish I’d done – been able to do more. Because I wanted to do the music, but I had to do boring project management.

Paul Boag:
And Leigh got to do the music, which he loves.

Marcus Lillington:
Leigh did all of it in the end, but you – and you were involved at the start in the scripting…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
…which is great.

Paul Boag:
Oh, great fun.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s just so nice to be able to just do something that has to work on one machine.

Paul Boag:
No. Absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s fantastic, because we just don’t do that.

Paul Boag:
And what was so cool is you know is you know it’s something a bit different.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And you suddenly discovered like Dan has got this whole skill set we didn’t know about. He is really experienced in doing kinetic typography and so he looked to at the script and said, oh yes, you want to do this here and this there. And we were just going aha aha whatever.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah yeah okay okay.

Paul Boag:
So – and then Leigh went away and did it. And he did a brilliant job at it and it was pretty good and the music was really funky and all the rest of it but what amused me is it got a standing ovation from the Americans because they were all going…

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t think they were doing that…

Paul Boag:
The Americans always do that. In my head, they do. They do, okay.

Marcus Lillington:
They don’t. So then like football supporters probably.

Paul Boag:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
Is it a different type of a person?

Paul Boag:
Different.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Because they do this kind of, what is it, air fist punch. Fist – air fist, I don’t know. They kind of…

Marcus Lillington:
I’m just going to let you hang with that one.

Paul Boag:
Thank you. So yeah, I just got into this.

Marcus Lillington:
So it was the Apple presentation back in the spring. They started off their big presentation with a little video.

Paul Boag:
Yes, link in the show notes to that.

Marcus Lillington:
And it was that. I watched that and thought we could so something like this for Dickstein and it was – I suggested it just went swimmingly

Paul Boag:
Yes, I am amazed it’s only been used for that. I feel like it needs to be online somewhere so the whole world can enjoy it.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, we probably could do something with it.

Paul Boag:
Oh I ought to put a link to show notes to Chelsea Pensioners and Dickstein as well because I forgot about that. And if I don’t say…

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I did say them out loud, almost spelled them.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but if I don’t say the word link in the show notes then I – when I go through the show notes and as it is, they are going to be in the wrong place, I am going to have to go back through it all. My life’s so difficult.

Marcus Lillington:
It is. Should we just do this

Paul Boag:
Oh we are supposed to be doing something, yes. Sorry, I forgot we’re doing the podcast
Right. This house proposes, no introduction let’s just get on with it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Do it

Paul Boag:
This house proposes that clients should stop paying for licensed, proprietary content management solutions and embrace open source. What’s the answer to this one, Marcus, yes or no?

Marcus Lillington:
I think this comes down to support although probably somebody will say differently in the comments, I think what you get with a licensed system is somebody to shout at. You don’t get necessarily with an open source system. And I think…

Paul Boag:
Craig…

Marcus Lillington:
… I think to a lot of people that means an awful lot.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely, don’t disagree with that at all. But Craig says paid support is available for open source and he is correct.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I suppose to a certain extent that’s true when we are providing support for the two Drupal sites we’ve just been discussing but it’s not for stuff that’s wrong with Drupal…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Did you get what I mean?

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
There is a little bit of a difference there but I suppose we would be supporting fixing something that was wrong with Drupal.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So to a certain extent…

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Forget them. I agree.

Paul Boag:
Now, that’s interesting.

Marcus Lillington:
Get rid of licensed CMSs full stop.

Paul Boag:
That’s how they… because there’s a lot disagrees. But let’s look at the agrees first. Open source has a lower barrier-to-entry and so broadens and deepens the developer community…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…which I think is true. The developer – see that’s the flip side. Yes, maybe you don’t get the same level of support and documentation in that kind of stuff. But what you do get is a massive community of developers.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. And the massive, endless tools and plugins which you won’t have from a…

Paul Boag:
Well

Marcus Lillington:
…50 strong person CMS.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, that kind of thing. But there’s kind of middle ground here, you see. Because that’s what my head did exactly what you just did, right? I looked…

Marcus Lillington:
I’m so obvious.

Paul Boag:
…I was comparing because I did it too. I was comparing Drupal to…

Marcus Lillington:
Sitecore.

Paul Boag:
Sitecore yeah, right? But actually, there’s a kind of middling area which is ExpressionEngine…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…which has got a big developer community, is a very popular content management system but is licensed.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
So it’s not always – this more of a range here and I guess that’s what the house does not take into account in this. Craig, what else does Craig write? Craig writes due to their often lower user base, they may not be as rapidly developed and certainly do not have the same – if they do not have the same plugin architecture developers, we’ll be less likely to extend functionality. WordPress is a prime example of that, an ecosystem that established high-quality plugins, an array of high-quality plugins and that is true.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s what I just said.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, absolutely. But he said it in posher language. So let’s have a look at the disagrees, right? Support, I think…

Marcus Lillington:
Don’t you think they all work for software houses?

Paul Boag:
No, I don’t think they do actually. I would like to say that. Let’s carry on with Craig because Craig got…

Marcus Lillington:
I am joking, obviously.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, Craig.

Paul Boag:
Because Craig, earlier, he said pay for support is also available in the open source community. So he is kind of defending it against people that were saying what you said earlier. But generally speaking, he does disagree with the house because he says to me, professionally, the question of open versus closed source is largely irrelevant as it doesn’t impact the important questions that need to be asked when selecting a CMS. The bottom-line is that proprietary software vendors are still much better of making the budget controller feel good about choosing their product.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh yeah.

Paul Boag:
And I think that is a really good point.

Marcus Lillington:
Goes back to what I was saying.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Someone to shout at…

Paul Boag:
Exactly.

Marcus Lillington:
…but it’s not only that. Basically, if you are a software house that is trying to sell licenses, then you will have sales people who are very good at selling it…

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
…whereas open source systems don’t rely on that at all. No, that’s not what they are about. But that seems like a throw-away comment but it’s not.

Paul Boag:
What’s that bit?

Marcus Lillington:
The bit about making the budget controller feel good about their choice…

Paul Boag:
They are… it’s really important.

Marcus Lillington:
…really important.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely. It is. It is a massively important thing. I mean that’s equally true, selling web design services. A lot of the time it’s about making the client feel safe which is such a – and that’s what Kate – you remember Kate that I accidentally read earlier? That’s what she is getting at. She says from a risk management perspective which is essentially the same thing.

Marcus Lillington:
Kate, she was further up the page, wasn’t she?

Paul Boag:
Yes, in the wrong section. The thought of losing support should the company waver or fold is not appealing. So she basically – the problem with – sorry not company, community. The problem with open source is that developers can be a bit fickle, can’t they?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And today, Drupal is the big thing and tomorrow it might be something else and suddenly Drupal doesn’t get the attention it needs.

Marcus Lillington:
But that goes both ways because the company could get – could fold. They could go out of business.

Paul Boag:
That is true as well, yeah, so it does go both ways and actually Kate does say that. Let’s see what else we’ve got. Jonathan – at a certain size, the cost question loses traction, right? So, in other words, bigger clients don’t actually care very much whether…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Open source is free. It’s not that cost – not that cost doesn’t matter on larger projects, just that the cost difference between proprietary and open source is less. While opting for open source is progressive in one sense, it is unlikely to represent a noticeable cost saving for a web project of any significant size. Absolutely, because the cost is in implementation rather than actually, you know, in the software itself.

Marcus Lillington:
Absolutely. Yes, that’s a very good point. And I would say that unless you are a small organization, cost shouldn’t be the reason for going for – opting for open source.

Paul Boag:
No. And to be honest, nobody really talked – he was the only person that…

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
…really talked about cost at all. I think it was just generally accepted that the reason to go with open source is not a cost issue…

Marcus Lillington:
Developer community.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
And plug-in architecture. Definitely.

Paul Boag:
And that it goes back to what Craig was saying really, that whether – it’s not – it’s almost an irrelevant debate this one, open source versus closed source, because that shouldn’t be a deciding factor in selecting a CMS, whether it’s open source or proprietary. There are load of other questions. I actually wrote an article a while ago about selecting a CMS, so I’ll put a link in a show notes. And it doesn’t really mention cost, it doesn’t really mention open source versus proprietary.

Ty says quite an interesting thing and this goes back to the issue of development costs again, that those are the primary thing, rather than the cost of the CMS. He said I’ve spent many non-billable hours slogging through horribly-designed and coded WordPress extensions.

Proprietary CMS applications usually have a smaller, but deeper, pool of third-party developers. Since the development itself requires investment, I tend to find a higher ratio of professionals developing add-ons and plug-ins, and better support for those goodies.

In other words, yes, you get shitloads of plug-ins on WordPress, but it doesn’t mean they’re good, there is a lot of dross. There’s a lot of rubbish, there’s even a lot that contain malware and spyware and that kind of stuff. So you actually – you’ve got a lot to wade to find the good stuff. So, it’s really quite interesting. It’s not a black and white issue.

Pierre says he’s gone down the complete the opposite route and has left WordPress behind and went – left open source behind. He’s actually a fan of open source software, but by moving away from it, it’s helped to cut down his costs and be more effective at his job.

In addition it needs to be, he needs a solution that requires little or no support once deployed. And he doesn’t want to be having to give his clients extensive training. He implies something that I think is a valid point which is another problem with open source in a lot of cases, although not all, in a lot of cases they’re developed by developers. So they tend to not be very useable and so you do have to give people quite a lot of training to get the most out of them or you need to put a lot of work reskinning and resorting the admin system in order to be able to get it into a better state. With a commercial product, because they’re selling to budget holders, they’re selling to normal plebs.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
I discovered recently where ‘pleb’ came from. I never realized it was a Roman term.

Marcus Lillington:
Really?

Paul Boag:
For the working man.

Marcus Lillington:
Really.

Paul Boag:
It’s true.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. I’ve learned something today.

Paul Boag:
‘Plebiscites’.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I did know that.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So, anyway. So, yes. So, it’s not an insult by calling people…

Marcus Lillington:
Sorry, I’m reading jokes now.

Paul Boag:
I thought you’d zoned out! I wondered what was going on. See, there’s nothing like preparing in advance for the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Some things never change, Paul.

Paul Boag:
So, yeah, because you were sitting there doing a lot of nodding and obviously not paying any attention. By the way, nodding is not helpful on a podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Shut up. Right. Yes, so I think I disagree with the house over that. I initially I could see where the house was coming from, because I wrote it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Although I have to stress, I don’t often – just because I write it, doesn’t mean I agree with it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
I pick whichever way is easiest to word the question, basically, to be as clear as possible. So, I’m rejecting the house on that one. On the first one, I think I’m also rejecting the house – that I don’t think we need to be hiding navigation in order to remove clutter. However, I do…

Marcus Lillington:
There’s something in both of them.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
In the right circumstances.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s not quite that it’s wrong

Paul Boag:
It depends, doesn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, it always does. Doesn’t it?

Paul Boag:
What it is all about, so there we go. That’s this week’s show. What you got joke wise?

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I have to say thank you –

Paul Boag:
You’re welcome.

Marcus Lillington:
– to so many people who’ve sent me jokes.

Paul Boag:
Oh, not me.

Marcus Lillington:
All of a sudden. I’ll just name a few people: Zach Esposito, Jennifer Hallarin, Wizard – oh, I never know quite who that is, although he’s been sending me jokes for years – Eugene, Richard Oster, John Rose.

Paul Boag:
Richard Oster.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s what it says here.

Paul Boag:
I know Richard Oster. Hello, Richard, I didn’t know you listened.

Marcus Lillington:
There you go.

Paul Boag:
He’s a blast from the past. When I used to do…

Marcus Lillington:
John Rose, and this from Lyall Barrass.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. So, just a quick one.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
Did you hear about the fat, alcoholic transvestite? All he wanted to do, he was eat, drink and be Mary.

Paul Boag:
That’s quite good.

Marcus Lillington:
It is.

Paul Boag:
Well done.

Marcus Lillington:
We’ve got loads. But still send through more.

Paul Boag:
Do you want to know what we’re covering next week?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah, go on then.

Paul Boag:
If I’ve got it right.

Marcus Lillington:
I was going to say, is it really going to be…

Paul Boag:
No, that’s not right. That’s not the right ones, because we’ve already done one about designers and agile, haven’t we?.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Yeah, so it’s not right. Okay. It’s okay, I’m in control. Here we go. Here we go. I’m nearly there, people.

Marcus Lillington:
So, another one, I’ll do another joke from this list.

Paul Boag:
Yeah. Go on.

Marcus Lillington:
Just a reminder to those who stole electrical goods in last year’s riots: your one year manufacturer’s warranty runs out soon.

Paul Boag:
I hate those bloody letters. It’s like, I don’t care. Okay, no, no, I’m really excited about next week’s, we’ve got some – two really good ones, right?

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
Number one, because – this one is really good because we’re going to argue over it.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
And the next one’s really good because I think it’s a really interesting subject. This one is: this house proposes that we should no longer ask clients to sign off design before we build it.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
That’s – so we’re going to argue over that one, aren’t we.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. That’s just stupid.

Paul Boag:
I’ve put together a really compelling argument for that…

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
…you need to read it. And the second one is: this house proposes that web designers should refuse to do work they consider unethical.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
And that’s kind of, we’re going to get into what’s more important? To stick by you principles or to deliver what the client wants. So, I think that’s going to be really interesting.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. I won’t start talking about it now.

Paul Boag:
No.

Marcus Lillington:
No. That’s for next week.

Paul Boag:
It’s really hard not to.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Boag:
You’ve just got this urge to start talking about it. So, I think that’s going to be a really good show. I’m really looking forward to that one.

Marcus Lillington:
Cool.

Paul Boag:
And that will take place in our new spangly barn.

Marcus Lillington:
It will.

Paul Boag:
So I’m looking forward to that as well.

Marcus Lillington:
On a meeting table that probably won’t have been delivered and…

Paul Boag:
Oh, yeah. When are we recording it? Are we recording it on the Monday?

Marcus Lillington:
Supposedly on the Tuesday, but I’m hoping that the meeting table will be delivered for – we’re getting a new meeting table – and it was the one thing that had to be ordered in.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
…and they’re saying, should be in. And I say, well, I don’t know, it doesn’t matter, but then I’ve just realized we’ll struggle to record a podcast.

Paul Boag:
We’ll have to sit on the Astroturf.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Have I told people that that we’ve – I don’t know why, but I thought that was a good idea.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s quite sort of funny under your feel. But it’s alright.

Paul Boag:
Is it bristly? Is it hard, spiky?

Marcus Lillington:
Not really. It’s in between.

Paul Boag:
Ooh. I’m not sure this is a good idea. We’ve carpeted the floor of the meeting room with Astroturf. I don’t know what I was thinking, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Marcus Lillington:
No, I quite like it, because basically if you go in there, the majority of the time you’re just going to be sat on a chair. Like this.

Paul Boag:
Yeah.

Marcus Lillington:
So, it’s alright.

Paul Boag:
It’s not like, you’re going to be sitting on the floor, although we will be.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah. Next week.

Paul Boag:
For the podcast. So that will be really good. I wonder if anyone else is going to be around on Tuesday. Do you reckon, is Leigh down? It would be cool get Leigh on the show.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, he is, yeah.

Paul Boag:
Let’s get Leigh on the show.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
He’ll have an opinion about everything.

Marcus Lillington:
Yeah.

Paul Boag:
And also, it turns much more waffly when he’s on the show. Which would be quite remarkable, because I think I’ve done an excellent job at being particularly waffly today.

Marcus Lillington:
You have.

Paul Boag:
Well done me. By the way, if you don’t like the waffle, which I completely understand, I agree…

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, you’re not going to ask people that again, are you?

Paul Boag:
No, no, no. I’ve decided, I was explaining this to someone, that I hadn’t kind of really made this point publicly, but is what my thinking has been, that I have now decided the show is for waffle. Right, so if you like the waffle on the show, we will be waffly and we will continue to be waffly.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
However, if you don’t like the waffle, or if you’ve got a short commute, so somebody I was talking to has only got 10 minutes, they never get past the waffle…

Marcus Lillington:
Ooh yeah. Well, we do put the breakpoints when the actual story starts.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
After our introduction.

Paul Boag:
But you’ve downloaded it onto your iPod, you don’t know when those breakpoints are…

Marcus Lillington:
True.

Paul Boag:
So, what you can check out instead, it’s boagworld.com/category/tips and essentially – or pretty much all my blog posts now, I record as one-off, just me going through the blog post. And you can subscribe to those in iTunes and you can – or whatever your podcatcher of choice is, and they’re like 3 or 4 minutes normally of me talking about a subject. So you can get your web design fix while doing your 10 minute walk to work, without the waffle.

So, and we cover all the same kind of things, we talk about the same debate topics. It’s all there for you. So, check those out, if the main show is not of your liking. And to be honest, even if it is, because we cover loads of stuff on those on we don’t cover on the proper the podcast as well, so…

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
All good stuff. Right. Talk to you again next week from our Georgian townhouse.

Marcus Lillington:
Ooh. Bye.

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