A customer centric culture

This week on the Boagworld web show we look at how digital has empowered customers and led to a service driven business culture.

Play

Paul Boag:
This week on the Boagworld web show we look at how digital has empowered customers and that in turn has led to a service driven business culture.

[adapt]

Is it me, Marcus, or was that the most boring introduction ever? That sounded like the dullest show on earth.

Marcus Lillington:
People have forgotten about it because of the very long intro music. So we’re okay.

Paul Boag:
And they all love the intro music.

Marcus Lillington:
One of my jobs when I go on holiday, Paul…

Paul Boag:
Yes. How many times you mentioned that on the show?

Marcus Lillington:
Quite a few times.

Paul Boag:
I don’t understand people doing that. You didn’t get me doing that when I went to the Maldives.

Marcus Lillington:
Is to edit the intro.

Paul Boag:
I need a really little piece of music …

Marcus Lillington:
Do you?

Paul Boag:
… like literally a kind of – less that a divider’s length that says the word Boagworld in it for the beginning of my videos.

Marcus Lillington:
Your microphone is pointing the wrong way.

Paul Boag:
How did you do that?

Marcus Lillington:
Oh look.

Paul Boag:
Should we start again?

Marcus Lillington:
No, no you’re alright. I can still hear you. Just were quiet. So now people would – that’s why Paul sounded like he was a long way away, I’m thinking …

Paul Boag:
You’ll have to boost me.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I can do that. Or can I?

Paul Boag:
Yes, you should be able to.

Marcus Lillington:
On one channel, both of us.

Paul Boag:
We are both on one channel? Why we are on one channel? That’s really rubbish.

Marcus Lillington:
No, it isn’t.

Paul Boag:
Why do you record us on one channel? I thought you were a professional. Would you do that?

Marcus Lillington:
To make my life easier. That’s why I did it, but yes I can go through it and take each little bit of you talking, just Paul, and make it that bit louder. Yes I can.

Paul Boag:
Good.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, all of the bit that we’re saying now will all be irrelevant. People won’t understand it.

Paul Boag:
This is what I sounded like.

Marcus Lillington:
It was more sort of…

Paul Boag:
Okay, fair enough. I don’t want to be doing this podcast anyway. You know what I want to be doing?

Marcus Lillington:
Going on holiday like me?

Paul Boag:
No. I want to be standing behind Ed.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. You want to be – what you want to be really is doing what Ed is doing. Yes, it’s true.

Paul Boag:
I want to be doing what Ed is doing to the level of skill that Ed does it. Ed is redesigning the Headscape and Boagworld websites at the moment and we’re already annoying him. And he only been doing it, what, an hour. I feel so sorry for him. He’s got Dan the front-end coder hovering around being opinionated. And then he has got two clients with two different – slightly different objectives and we’re trying to create one site. We’re kind of doing this combined Boagworld, Headscape monstrosity. Kind of think of a Frankenstein crippled kind of design that’s part Headscape – Head-Boag, Boag-Head.

Marcus Lillington:
No, I’m not going down that route.

Paul Boag:
Scape – what Scapeworld. I quite like Scapeworld …

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
… or Headworld.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, I’m sure there is a site called that.

Paul Boag:
I see you always bring things down to lowest common denominator.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. It’s true. Now I’m quite excited about it.

Paul Boag:
Even like we did in like 10 minutes is really loads better.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, we’re finally getting a designer I can feel I like.

Paul Boag:
What are you implying about – I have done every other version of that, the Boagworld website, what …?

Marcus Lillington:
No, you haven’t. You haven’t done them all.

Paul Boag:
Yes, I think I did.

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t count Boagworld. I’m only thinking of Headscape.

Paul Boag:
Nobody goes to Headscape, who cares about Headscape?

Marcus Lillington:
True. I can’t remember previous versions of Boagworld.

Paul Boag:
Oh, there’s been hundreds of them. There was one which was largely black-and-white and very minimalistic, but I didn’t like it. So it lasted about 5 minutes. But – so if you are a regular visitor to Boagworld, when you arrive on the new Boagworld website you will obviously before you can do anything, have to provide us with your contact details and there will be a bloody big advertisement for Headscape saying buy our products. That’s how it’s going to work now, isn’t it?

Marcus Lillington:
Absolutely.

Paul Boag:
Because we believe …

Marcus Lillington:
You have to pay for articles.

Paul Boag:
Pay for articles? Pay – what other things are we going to do. We’re going to do one of those annoying …

Marcus Lillington:
And podcast obviously.

Paul Boag:
Opt out things with double negative words so you can’t work out whether you’re opting in or opting out. And a big when – you land on the site …

Marcus Lillington:
It’d be quite be funny just to do that. Just for a bit.

Paul Boag:
We ought to, yes, all the things that you must never do on sites. One of those big pop up overlay things, when you’re trying to read a story that says subscribe.

Marcus Lillington:
Well all the things you’ve got in that article, that’s what we need to do.

Paul Boag:
All those things, yes, just only – just for IE6. Link in the show notes to the ridiculous article I wrote that people still comment on thinking I was serious.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
So very funny.

Marcus Lillington:
Never mind.

Paul Boag:
Yes, so actually I went to a website recently, Skillshare, the kind of way you can buy videos of people teaching you how to do stuff. And I arrived on the site and I was all ready part with my money when they bought this big pop-up over the top saying sign up for our newsletter. I was here to give you money, but now you want me to stop giving you money and sign up for a newsletter instead. So that you can then persuade me to give you money. How does that work?

Marcus Lillington:
So, you then …

Paul Boag:
I then left.

Marcus Lillington:
You left?

Paul Boag:
I left the site; they actually stopped me doing it. I was in – only because I wanted – immediately obviously did a screen grab, posted on Twitter my indignation and by that stage I’d forgotten that I was supposed to be getting something on the site.

Marcus Lillington:
I seem to remember we had one of our clients yesterday contacted me to say we want to add a survey to the site, we want it to pop up on every page.

Paul Boag:
I haven’t got a problem with it, like, floating up, like a fixed thing at the bottom. It’s the ones that pop up and stop you doing anything else until you close it.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly that, and then…

Paul Boag:
Oh is that what he was talking about?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, then you can’t find the corner to close it on mobile view and all that kind of stuff.

Paul Boag:
Yes, no, it’s bad. I wrote a post on this recently, link in the show notes. It’s particularly annoying with apps. When you’re in the middle of using an app and it says, do you like this app? Yes, I’m trying to use it as a matter of fact.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly.

Paul Boag:
Or the ones …

Marcus Lillington:
Please rate this app. No.

Paul Boag:
And it’s the ones that say do you like this app? Yes, no. If you put yes it says why not rate it? And if you put no, it says let us know why you don’t like the app. No, just get the dialogues out of the way.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly. I would like to use it please.

Paul Boag:
Feedly does it really well. They do, because I can understand people wanting you to rate their app, totally understand that. What they do with Feedly, so that’s an RSS reader. You’re working through your RSS. When you reach the end of a section it asks you then, when you finish doing the task you’re currently doing, and that makes sense. Want me to sign up for a newsletter, let me finish reading the article or let me finish making the purchase, then ask me, because that’s when I’m most open to doing other things, because I’ve finished what I was trying to do. Thus ends the lecture for the day. So where are you going? In Mexico isn’t it? Mexico?

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I wish I was going to Mexico.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Marcus Lillington:
No, no I’m going to Cape Verde again.

Paul Boag:
Where is that?

Marcus Lillington:
Cape Verde. It’s off the coast of West Africa.

Paul Boag:
Oh, the Canary Islands.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, south of the Canary Islands, about another few hundred miles.

Paul Boag:
Okay.

Marcus Lillington:
So, it’s actually right on – it’s on the same latitude as Dakar.

Paul Boag:
So very hot then?

Marcus Lillington:
It’s actually not …

Paul Boag:
Because of the Atlantic, I’m guessing.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s very windy, but it’s – so I think it’s about 25, so lovely.

Paul Boag:
Lovely, yes.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s perfect, but the problem is you cannot go there and not burn, especially when you are a milk bottle like me at the moment, because it’s almost – because it’s quite close to the equator, so the sun is very strong, but you don’t think it’s that strong,

Paul Boag:
Feel it. Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
And I knew it, and everyone goes. And I was slapping 30 factor all over me regularly and I still burnt.

Paul Boag:
Wow!

Marcus Lillington:
So it’s very strong sun there. But it’s just wonderful kind of not much to do kind of place. Lots of walking. I don’t know if you saw that photograph that I’ve got as my background on my computer at the moment. So when I went last year. It’s basically a picture of about 10 miles of beach; I was looking back to the hotel, 10 miles exactly in front. We did 10 miles in total. So five miles of beach, there is nobody on the beach between us and the hotel. Now that is pretty cool.

Paul Boag:
That is cool. I will give you that.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, and the rest of the time you kind of just sit around, eat and drink and be merry.

Paul Boag:
Lovely.

Marcus Lillington:
But I’m going to take my computer with me this time, so I can play. So I can do music play, and video play.

Paul Boag:
It’s as long as you can differentiate between the two. See I take my iPad because I know I can’t do anything too serious on my iPad.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, well that’s the one. I’m going to leave it at home, because otherwise I end up taking every device I own, which is just like I’m not doing that.

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely. I know what you mean.

Marcus Lillington:
Because you know, it’s the Kindle, I’ve got to take my phone and I’m going to take the laptop as well.

Paul Boag:
So I’ve been having lots of fun recently. Talking about playing …

Marcus Lillington:
Have you? What have you been doing?

Paul Boag:
… I’ve been playing with YouTube.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, yes you have, haven’t you?

Paul Boag:
I’ve had such fun …

Marcus Lillington:
Making films, Paul the film star.

Paul Boag:
How come I … yes, that’s me. Because I want to launch my television career. So I just don’t understand how I have only just found out how incredibly easy this is.

Marcus Lillington:
What, making videos or using YouTube?

Paul Boag:
I’ve used YouTube before. But actually it’s really very basic. All I did – I’ve got like a cheap-o lapel mic. I’ve got a DSLLR – DSLR, that was right.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Camera that I have had any way and I bought a 30 pound light and it’s great. It was just great fun. I really enjoying it. So increasingly my blog posts now have got YouTube video shared with them because it’s fun and it’s easy and it’s – it doesn’t have you in it. So I’m going to …

Marcus Lillington:
Well, how much better would it be?

Paul Boag:
It would actually. If you could come down and we could co-host it together, it would be such a…

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, this is like the old days.

Paul Boag:
I know. It’s going to happen all over again. This is what happens. I start something. We decide it’s a bit shit by myself and then you come and prop it up.

Marcus Lillington:
So I would love to be in a video, but I’m not coming down every week.

Paul Boag:
No, but once in a while you could do?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
I mean to be honest once in a while I could bring it in here. It’s not that much stuff to bring in to be honest.

Marcus Lillington:
That would be ideal.

Paul Boag:
Yes, we ought to do it one day. Do a video, but the videos can’t be long like these podcasts. You can’t have ten minutes of waffle.

Marcus Lillington:
No, you sure?

Paul Boag:
Yes, it’s got to be like 10 minutes the whole thing.

Marcus Lillington:
We’re not good enough basically to carry that off. That’s what it is.

Paul Boag:
I don’t think we’re concise enough to do something like that. But it’s loads of fun, if you want to check out what I’ve been doing, and I will be doing a lot more, you can go to Boag – no, you could go to youtube.com/boagworld and you can see all the videos that I’ve been producing. And obviously because it’s YouTube you can write some really offensive comments, because that’s what you’re supposed to do on YouTube. That’s what YouTube exists for. There you go.

Marcus Lillington:
For grammar nazis and really rude people.

Paul Boag:
Yes. I’ve had a few problems with my audio, because apparently you can’t record decent audio off a MacBook Pro.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, I wouldn’t know.

Paul Boag:
It hasn’t got a mic, a separate mic socket for a start.

Marcus Lillington:
Do the Pros not have them now?

Paul Boag:
No, no.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s bizarre.

Paul Boag:
So you’ve got a headphone socket that doubles up as a microphone if you’ve got a three ring thing, but of course none of the lapel mics do, so then you’ve got to buy a USB adaptor-y thing.

Marcus Lillington:
Or a big one.

Paul Boag:
Well you’ve got a big posh one and that’s what I really need is a big posh one, but …

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, Focusrite, they are very good stuff.

Paul Boag:
Are they? I wonder whether they have a smaller version.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I think they do.

Paul Boag:
Anyway, so I’ve one …

Marcus Lillington:
I’m looking for you.

Paul Boag:
Okay. That would be good. Not while we’re doing the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
Just keep on talking.

Paul Boag:
So I plugged in a little USB thing and of course Macs always have this funny thing with USB where you get the power of the USB kind of interferes with audio. Have you ever had that? We used – we’ve had that problem before when we’ve done the podcast.

Marcus Lillington:
This is a USB desk, he says tapping on it.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
But I’ve only ever used its USBness once because it was buzzy.

Paul Boag:
Yes, there you go.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes it doesn’t. I just use it as a standard analog desk now.

Paul Boag:
It’s just a really annoying thing and it just – it ruins it. I’m sure somebody will tell me how to solve the problem. But at the moment I’m looking …

Marcus Lillington:
Well yes, I am. Buy a Focusrite USB doobry.

Paul Boag:
So what I have been doing at the moment is been recording it on a PC, which seems like a …

Marcus Lillington:
Or record it on a PC.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
This is the bottom of the range, 119 quid.

Paul Boag:
I can’t justify that

Marcus Lillington:
Of course you can.

Paul Boag:
Alright, Chris cries. I don’t like making Chris cry.

Marcus Lillington:
Shall I order one for you? Do it now?

Paul Boag:
Yes, go on then. Now I’ll do it later. I’ll order one later. What was the other thing I was going to say about that, that was really, really important. Well it wasn’t really important. Yes, that – so I resorted to recording on Windows, but there are several of the videos at the moment that sound like an android because what I have had to do is do a noise removal in order to get rid of the buzz and it just sounds terrible.

Marcus Lillington:
I have had to do that. I have tried to do that in old podcasts where you have done – you have been interviewing people and it’s just like I’m going to try and clean this up, it just sounds ridiculous.

Paul Boag:
It sounds terrible. You’ve got to get it right first time.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, exactly.

Paul Boag:
So I’ve now got a system, so the audio will improve now. But anyway we’ve probably talked about that long enough.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, have we got anything more interesting?

Paul Boag:
We have actually. It’s a relatively – despite the very dull title. It’s a very interesting show this week because we’re talking about essentially user-centric design and how this kind of digital revolution that we’re living through is having a profound impact on user centric design and on the customer centric culture and all that kind of stuff. And we’re going to start off by looking at how really user centric design should always lead to business transformation. You can’t just create a great user experience without it having an impact on the business as a whole, and that’s what we are going to look at right now.

Why effective user centric design always leads to business transformation

Many companies pay lip service to user centric design, but the harsh truth is that without business transformation, most will fail to satisfy their users.

Share your thoughts

Okay, so yes, what I want to kind of look at in this show is how user centric design is beginning to become this really important thing. This kind of custom – not so much user centric, use the word customer centric because if you say user centric then you’re immediately limiting it obviously to digital. But this idea of being so customer centric has become this enormous thing I think on the web in all the conversations that are going on in the web and within business as a whole. And I think what’s happened is there is kind of two factors here. That with the rise of digital and the web and that kind of stuff we are seeing an explosion in the accessibility of the competition and the number of competitors because the barriers for entry are lowering it means that there are more competitors out there than there were before.

So it means that in whatever sector you’re working in, the chances are there are a lot more competitors that are a lot more easily accessible than they were 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago or whatever. And on top of that, so not only are consumers now faced with, well, you’ve pissed me off so I’m going to go to your competition, it’s easy to do. So there’s that one factor, but then there is the other factor which is that you’ve pissed me off and now I’m going to tell the entire world, which is the other massive issue of that. And of course the first big blow up of this was Dell Hell, have you heard about the Dell Hell story? So this was a guy called Jeff Jarvis who wrote a post complaining about the customer service that he had received from Dell. And Dell stoically ignored them and then over time the post drew a lot of attention and eventually got picked up by mainstream media and caused all kinds of problems. And it was really interesting that – there’s a graph that I’ve got in the article associated with this that you can get to via the show notes, which shows the share price of Dell just dive following Jeff Jarvis.

And somebody in the comments rightly picked me up and said well that isn’t the only reason the share price dived, but it’s no doubt that that is a factor in it. Dell had serious customer service problems and through just one or two people it began to build momentum and these problems became very public very quickly and it damaged confidence in the company, it created bad publicity, it put off a lot of people from buying Dell, et cetera. So this is a huge problem that organizations are now having to tackle of, you know, how do you deal with unhappy clients. And you know what it’s like on Twitter. If you complain about anything on Twitter, you get lept on immediately by the company these days, don’t they? They rush to …

Marcus Lillington:
That is true. I mean I also think cynically that companies hire people, hire experts or quite senior people in dealing with these kind of issues. And it isn’t necessarily by being nice. It’s deflection and this kind of thing, but they take it very seriously I guess is the point here.

Paul Boag:
Yes, that is the point is that how they deal with it will depend from brand to brand, but it’s the fact that this is becoming a big thing. And of course a lot of organizations, organizations that we really respect and admire that we hold up a lot are often organizations that have an obsessional focus on customers. We talked before, didn’t we, about MailChimp and the fact that they have personas on the wall, but you could equally talk about, oh, the name has gone out of my head. Sell shoes. Bought by Amazon.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, shoes?

Paul Boag:
Yes, Amazon shoes company bought, Zappos.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Yes, which offer amazing customer service. So for example they offer an unconditional return policy for 365 days.

Marcus Lillington:
Like Marks & Spencer’s?

Paul Boag:
Did they do that?

Marcus Lillington:
Don’t know about 365, but it has always been unconditional. Bring it back, get your money back.

Paul Boag:
And you can – they will pay ….

Marcus Lillington:
Not on underwear, I don’t believe.

Paul Boag:
Oh good, that’s …

Marcus Lillington:
It’s good to know isn’t it? Yes.

Paul Boag:
And they will pay postage both ways and they’ve got brilliant telephone support and all the rest of it. So they take it very seriously and are very good at it. But there are loads of companies like it that are really on the ball in terms of supporting their customers and I think what every phone calls …

Marcus Lillington:
I had a phone call this morning with golfbreaks.com, I had to try and change some room things, they were fantastic.

Paul Boag:
Yes, and it goes so far.

Marcus Lillington:
On the phone. I mean the website was good as well, but all I really wanted to do was talk to somebody, but yes, fantastic.

Paul Boag:
Absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
I’m talking about it now on the radio.

Paul Boag:
Exactly. So and that’s what works really well and hopefully people will do the same with us, but we know they do the same with us, our clients who recommend us to other people because we have given customer service. So I think there has been kind of a realization that that’s an important thing. But and here is where I’m kind of coming – let’s bring it back to digital a little bit. I think we have got a bit of a problem in that we often as digital people we think exclusively about the digital realm and we’re interested in user experience and how users interact with the digital products that we buy.

Marcus Lillington:
I find it really hard not to.

Paul Boag:
What, think about the …

Marcus Lillington:
Outside of, I just really struggle with it.

Paul Boag:
But I think that’s good. I think that we should be thinking in the broadest way and that’s what I’m coming on to that. I think hosting companies are always a great example of this. They have amazing web experiences, they have these great interfaces where you can go in and you can look up your account and stuff like that until something goes wrong and you need to pick up the phone. At that point you’re put through to somebody in India that doesn’t speak English.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. I’ve just had – well to be fair, I’ve just had to cancel a Fasthosts account and as long as you’ve got your log in information, then their – it was very well dealt with, you know. They’re clear and they’re based in Gloucester, I believe.

Paul Boag:
Right. Yes, there you go.

Marcus Lillington:
But you know or they used to be anyway. I’m not sure if they still are. But yes, I take the point.

Paul Boag:
And it happens – I think it happens all the time where you can make the best user experience online in the world, but if it’s not joined up with the other things that are going on, then the whole experience falls apart. I mean, take for example traveling by air. A typical customer would book a ticket online, so you’ve got to create a good online experience there. They might print their ticket or access it via a mobile app. So again we’re talking about a digital interaction we are in control, all right. We control that realm, fine. But then they have got – they might receive a receipt via email. So do we control the emails that going out …

Marcus Lillington:
Or the ticket might be via email.

Paul Boag:
Yes, the ticket might be via – sometimes we’re in control of that, other times were not, but yes it’s digital, okay. So we’re still in our realm where everything is great. They might receive notifications of delays and changes via SMS. Again, maybe that’s still in our remit, so that’s good. But then they turn up and they have to check in with a member of staff.

Marcus Lillington:
But sometimes you don’t even do that with a person anymore.

Paul Boag:
No, you don’t. But my point is and then you’re served on the flight. So you can get this amazing digital experience, but then the reality of the rest of the experience offline can fall apart sometimes where the food is shit on the plane or there has been – they have overbooked it or whatever and you can have these bad – a good experience could be totally undermined. So I guess that kind of the point here is that you need to look at everything in its whole.

Marcus Lillington:
Absolutely.

Paul Boag:
That all ties together.

Marcus Lillington:
I just have to say though that in my experience, if you don’t – if you do as little as you can online, you will end up with a better deal at the end of it, apart from initial booking. If you do that over the phone they always taking an extra 5% on. But if you don’t print your ticket out or you basically use the service when you get to the airport, then you can go and talk to a human being about, oh, I could really do with a bit of extra legroom or, can I upgrade And all these things are never available to you online.

Paul Boag:
No, you’re right. But – and here is the but, I did that and it backfired horribly. So we were flying on my wife’s birthday so I thought, I know, I won’t check in online because I know what happens they get filled up, and I can go and I …

Marcus Lillington:
You can end up with the one that – with the two seats that got left.

Paul Boag:
And it’s my wife’s birthday, we’ll get an upgrade, and it will be great, plane was solid packed, all the business class, all the other classes solid packed, they ended up putting us at opposite ends of the plane, and it was only because I got on my hands and knees at the gate, I literally got on my hands and knees and begged the attendant that we managed to sit together. So it can backfire.

Marcus Lillington:
True, true. Yes, it can backfire the fact that obviously if they haven’t oversubscribed then you end up getting the worst seats, whereas if you’re really keen then that 24 hours before I’m going to get the two at the front then fair enough, but you’ve got to take the risk on getting the deals.

Paul Boag:
I do, it’s a gamble, like so much in life.

Marcus Lillington:
It is. It’s a gamble.

Paul Boag:
So I think that there is a problem with all this, because this all sounds very idealistic and very lovely and wonderful and that we should have this joined up approach, ra ra ra. But of course the problem is that a lot of organizations are fragmented into departments. And you have a department that deals with your air flight check-in and another group of people that deal with the food on the plane and the service there and then you have someone else that deals with the online experience and someone else that deals with the e-mail marketing and so on and so on.

And I think – take for example a retail store, it’s not likely that your retail store is going to be managed by the same people that deal with the website. And so you can have bizarre cases where you have different offers in the retail store to online and it can end up being – all kinds of peculiarities can go on if you’re not careful. I even worked for a company, worked with a company once were the telephone support and the online support were handled by separate departments. So there was this problem once where people were calling up going, you know there’s this problem, there’s this problem, and they were going, well we’re not aware of a problem. And it was on the frigging website, you know.

So you can have weird scenarios like that going on. And so that’s where something needs to shift in the way the company is organized, if you’re going to give a customer this kind of consistent experience across the organization. Now in the article that I wrote on this subject, I proposed something called position of a Chief Customer Officer. And this is an increasingly popular thing especially in America and it’s related to this new discipline that’s emerging called service design where you design the whole service from start to finish. And this is often championed by a Chief Customer Officer who works across departmental – current departmental structures. And they bring together designers and business specialists to look at the whole scope of the customer’s interaction focusing on each of the different parts of that journey and of course the web team would be a part of that kind of cross disciplinary piece of work. And this is something that we have seen work in lots of different places and it’s as I say quite popular in some circles, so it involves user interface, a designer, retailer experts, marketeers, sales professionals, numerous other specialists kind of working outside of their traditional departmental structures with the single goal of improving the customer experience. And then this is all headed up by potentially a Chief Customer Officer and that’s a board level appointment in a lot of organizations and he brings this single vision for the customer experience from beginning to end. Now …

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I just want to – that’s a really good idea and I guess that in a smaller company, that maybe the Managing Director should take on that role.

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely.

Marcus Lillington:
Because it’s such an important role, I mean, but you’re not going to be, this is just, let’s appoint another board member, that’s not something that you’re going to do.

Paul Boag:
Well, a lot of companies are doing it, but if it’s a smaller company, yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, smaller company, just it needs somebody to own it, because you’re going to break up your departments, they’re still going to be there, it just needs to make sure that you’ve got somebody who is powerful enough, we’ve said this in previous episodes. It’s about having the okay from the Board effectively of the company together head and make these changes to make this stuff happen.

Paul Boag:
And somebody with the teeth to make it happen, the drive to make it happen …

Marcus Lillington:
Exactly.

Paul Boag:
… which was my feeling, but this led to an interesting debate in the comments that I think – you guys go check out the comments, I am not going to go through it. And basically it’s a big argument between me and a guy called David Prince who is – he has written some great stuff before on the show. And he takes a slightly different view. He thinks that customer service should be the responsibility of everybody. And I can see where he is coming from, absolutely you can see where he is coming from. And he also argues …

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t disagree with that.

Paul Boag:
No, and I don’t disagree with it either. And he argues that if you appoint a Chief Customer Officer, then you’re effectively siloing customer service away within this particular group and that just appointing a new guy is often a token, really, of change rather than actually …

Marcus Lillington:
It could be, yes, but not if you – not if there is this person that is given the remit to basically stop the siloing happening, that’s their remit.

Paul Boag:
Well you see, I mean, this is where he kind of where perhaps I felt that his argument was a little bit weaker. And you need to read it for yourself, because he is a really smart guy and I’m not in any way dissing him. Because he says – he takes this, he refers to Andy Budd wrote an article about having good governance structures around stuff to avoid these kinds of problems. And I can completely accept that. I kind of understand that and you get this a lot. I have had this over other issues where that in my view there is kind of the theoretical best scenario and then there is the kind of practical realities.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, and what are we doing here? Dealing with human beings or not?

Paul Boag:
Yes and so that was my feeling, that yes, okay, if you have great governance practices, everybody is customer focused. But you’re trying to achieve a cultural change in an organization of people rooted in past behavior where they have always done things a certain way and so you’ve got to shift them out of that. And I think you need somebody with authority and power to make that transition happen. And I don’t think that person needs to be there forever. I think they could be there for a while and then maybe the role goes away. But I think if you’re trying to make any kind of transition, I had the same debate over – about digital strategies.

Digital should be ubiquitous. Every group within the organization should be using it, the much the same way as we use electricity, totally agree with that. That’s where we should be heading but to get there I think you need a head of digital, you need a digital strategy, you need a strong digital team to help you get to that place. And it felt like very much the same debate again that yes that should be the aim and there may be some companies that could make that transition straight into that, but certainly as I look at a lot of the organizations I work with, you feel like they could really do with somebody championing the customer experience from beginning to end.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, absolutely. We mustn’t forget that a lot of people go to work to earn money to live their life. That’s it, full stop pretty much. So to a certain extent they are going to need chivying a longer bit more than just a rule book telling them to do that.

Paul Boag:
Yes. Yes, I do agree. And just I think just to nurture as well that; well this is the way we do things. We have always done things this way.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, I mean chivying is the wrong word. Inspiring is the opposite end of the – that’s too much, but it’s kind of just a kind of like, having somebody kind of nurturing you really, well this is what we’re going to be doing. This is the new way – then people are going to pay attention to that then rather than we’ve got a new set of governance rules or you know …

Paul Boag:
Yes, that no one is ever going to read and it’s just a memo. You need a champion. And I have become such a fan, a lot of the times when I am brought into companies because I’m quite a strong person in my character and can be quite opinionated.

Marcus Lillington:
Can you?

Paul Boag:
Did you not notice that from this morning’s meeting about the Headscape website? That is what I often do. I am there to push through change and I really think it’s an important role, but then that’s just my opinion. But we have more to discuss on the subject of user experience design and service design, all that kind of stuff. But let’s take a little break to listen to Marcus’s musical interlude.

The essential secret to successful user experience design

For many, user experience design is about creating interfaces that are easy for users to understand and navigate. However, this isn’t what lies at the heart of a good user experience.

Share your thoughts

Okay, so we’re going to be talking about the essential secret to successful user experience design.

Marcus Lillington:
How much did you know that that was link bait, Paul?

Paul Boag:
I was perfectly aware that I was writing link bait.

Marcus Lillington:
You don’t always do that. Why now?

Paul Boag:
I’m experimenting.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. Experimenting with link bait?

Paul Boag:
See whether it really does make a difference or not.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, you could do pictures of naked women as well and all sorts to see if people will click on your links.

Paul Boag:
It’s a very – I find this a very interesting subject. This is not at all what we’re meant to be talking about.

Marcus Lillington:
Right.

Paul Boag:
But where is the line? What is wrong with a title like that? Other than that it feels like link bait?

Marcus Lillington:
Nothing at all if there is an essential secret within the article.

Paul Boag:
Well, I think there is. Well you can judge for yourself …

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
… as we go through it.

Marcus Lillington:
Right, fine.

Paul Boag:
You tell me at the end whether I have revealed an essential secret.

Marcus Lillington:
Find magic here.

Paul Boag:
Shut up. So what I’m talking about in this article, there is a link in the show notes if you want to read the essential secret. The fact that I feel slightly dirty about writing that as a title probably proves that it wasn’t the right thing to do. And I don’t …

Marcus Lillington:
And I picked up on it like that.

Paul Boag:
Yes. And so would my entire audience, which is why I’m probably not going to be continue in this particular ….

Marcus Lillington:
Experiment.

Paul Boag:
… experiment. But I do experiment.

Marcus Lillington:
If you tell people it’s an experiment then it’s okay.

Paul Boag:
Does that make it okay?

Marcus Lillington:
Absolutely.

Paul Boag:
All right. But then you invalidate your results, do you not, if they know that it is an experiment.

Marcus Lillington:
You have to do that, yes.

Paul Boag:
Yes. So I can’t talk about it unless, now the article has been out for a while, so it’s fine. To be honest it didn’t make a jot of difference one way or another to whether we read it. So I won’t be continuing with this particular approach.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
In fact if anything I think the number of …

Marcus Lillington:
It put people off.

Paul Boag:
Yes. I think it probably did. It was an edge one way or another whether it did. But anyway, I won’t be doing it. So, yes, so – there is so much talk about user experience design at the moment. And I’ve just been a little bit concerned about the direction maybe people are going. I think a big part of the talk about user experience design in even the most dull of businesses is thanks in no small part to Apple, that people have kind of woken up to, oh if you make something look pretty, it works – it must be good. Why are you holding up the Apple remote?

Marcus Lillington:
Because it’s something that looks pretty.

Paul Boag:
It’s something that looks pretty, but it’s the most annoying thing ever. That remote is designed to go – Yes, that remote is designed to disappear down the edge of sofas. It is designed to do that. I’ve had to stick Velcro on the back of mine …

Marcus Lillington:
That is really sad.

Paul Boag:
… which makes it look awful just as, because it just disappears.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s like putting tape over the middle of your glasses.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but it’s so smooth and curvy that it just disappears. It’s useless. It’s a terrible piece of …

Marcus Lillington:
It’s still a nice thing though, isn’t it?

Paul Boag:
It’s a terrible piece of design. I want something like this. You picked up an old fashion TV remote. There is no way …

Marcus Lillington:
With 20 million buttons on it.

Paul Boag:
With 20 million buttons, but all of the buttons are rubbery. So there is no way it’s going to slip.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, that’s true.

Paul Boag:
That’s the thing, you’ve got to think about these practicalities. Anyway.

Marcus Lillington:
Sorry, you were making a point there?

Paul Boag:
So the point was that Apple has shown a lot of companies that a good design sells, but I think it’s more than that. It’s about providing a better experience rather than just making it look pretty. So whether it’s an experience in how the product looks and feels in your hand or whether it’s about the customer service people receive, I think it’s a feeling based thing and I don’t think a lot of companies are quite getting user experience design. So that’s what I’m going to talk about. I want to talk about that essential secret that people are missing in terms of user experience design. And I think it begins with many organizations are starting with the wrong kind of premise when they think of user experience design. I think a lot of them are approaching it in a very company focused way rather than a user centric way. So they’re saying things like, right, we’ve got this product to service and we want to make it appear more attractive so consumers buy it. That’s essentially what they’re saying.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
Right. And that’s – they’re starting from an existing set of features and looking how to make it more attractive to people. And I don’t think that’s what user experience design is. I think that’s fundamentally flawed. I think that’s ever known – only ever going to lead to really superficial changes. For example, if you think of it in terms of designing a website, you may improve the website’s usability and make it more visually appealing. But if the content still isn’t answering the questions that users have got …

Marcus Lillington:
Make it more useful, that’s what you want to do rather than make it look better.

Paul Boag:
Yes. That’s a big part of it, absolutely. I think true user experience design kind of takes a step back from that and asks a fundamental question. Before a product is designed, a service shaped, or a website conceived, you need to ask what problem are you solving. And I think – I’m amazed how few organizations are still not – are failing to do that. So ultimately I think good user experience design is about solving problems for users. But I think more than that it should empower users and I’m a great believer in this. Making them feel like they’re able to do something that they were previously unable to do. So I was thinking about all the products and services I like the most. And they always make me feel a little bit superhuman. So Amazon Prime, I can get anything I need almost instantaneously is what it feels like with Amazon Prime.

Marcus Lillington:
And Dan was saying the other day that he thinks, and he doesn’t know if it’s true, but he thinks that they are getting a bit slower, Amazon Prime, it’s not always next day.

Paul Boag:
No, it’s true. I have …

Marcus Lillington:
He’s coming in now, come in. That’s Dan opening the noisy door.

Paul Boag:
So join Marcus on his mic, otherwise people won’t hear. Are you having an experience with Amazon Prime that it’s slowing down?

Dan Sheerman
I think that was around Valentine’s Day.

Paul Boag:
Aw, it could be.

Dan Sheerman
I worked out what that was, but it’s normally one day delivery in the U.K., two days in the States I think. But it was the week of Valentine’s week.

Paul Boag:
And it all went a bit mad.

Marcus Lillington:
But surely it’s not going to be as busy then as it is at Christmas and you want it to be …

Paul Boag:
They’re probably going to be more prepared.

Dan Sheerman
I’m guessing they are more prepared for it at Christmas.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, okay.

Paul Boag:
But doesn’t it – I mean I don’t know about you, but doesn’t Amazon Prime give you that kind of, if I need something, it can arrive tomorrow, I love that. That’s totally worth the money, isn’t it.

Dan Sheerman
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
You can stay or you can go.

Paul Boag:
You can stay around.

Dan Sheerman
I’m going to run away again.

Paul Boag:
Okay, you can run away.

Dan Sheerman
I have things to do.

Paul Boag:
Bye, bye.

Marcus Lillington:
Bye.

Dan Sheerman
Bye, bye.

Paul Boag:
Make our site good.

Marcus Lillington:
Do you need to stand behind Ed and go, oh, I’m not sure about that.

Dan Sheerman
I need to be a hovering art director.

Paul Boag:
Yes, hovering art director, absolutely get on with it. So that Amazon Prime is a great example of that, or Evernote makes me feel the same. I’ll never forget anything.

Marcus Lillington:
See, I don’t use Evernote for the exact reason that I’ll forget everything. Seriously, I’m not joking. It’s a case of if you rely – I think this is my opinion is that it relies completely on search and I will never remember what to search on, so I will never find anything.

Paul Boag:
Well, how does that work because …

Marcus Lillington:
I know, there’s a little bit of logic in it.

Paul Boag:
The key with Evernote is let’s say you want to find out something. I want to find out not even something that I remembered, I’m sure I saw a quote by Churchill about XYZ, obviously finding that …

Marcus Lillington:
That’s what Google is for, surely.

Paul Boag:
Okay. But – all right.

Marcus Lillington:
I might have written a Churchill quote.

Paul Boag:
I have written something about Churchill yes, and obviously it’s going to find that. But it’s where you have things like that I am looking for a really good quote about usability. I’m using quotes again and yes I could go and Google that.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s, yes, you’re not going to find it though, are you.

Paul Boag:
But you’re not necessarily going to find it and if I’ve already, when I Google it comes up with Evernote results as well, right.

Marcus Lillington:
I didn’t know that.

Paul Boag:
So I can see, oh, look I have already found something good on that search term. So even when I’m not kind of actively looking in Evernote …

Marcus Lillington:
What about all the stuff that you never search for, that’s there, but you don’t know it’s there?

Paul Boag:
Well, obviously it isn’t that important. I mean …

Marcus Lillington:
I like to know that everything is in a folder with a proper name.

Paul Boag:
Well, you can put it in a folder with a proper name if you want it. Look, their website says remember everything. So it must be true.

Marcus Lillington:
It must be true.

Paul Boag:
But that’s really interesting, they’ve got this idea. They’ve got the idea, they could have sold this as a note-taking app or they could have – but they haven’t sold its features or anything like that, they’ve sold it on it makes you super powered for want of a better word …

Marcus Lillington:
Which is great.

Paul Boag:
… which is great.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, absolutely.

Paul Boag:
It’s like another example is OmniFocus. OmniFocus makes me feel in control. I don’t know whether it really does make me in control, but it makes me feel that way. Feedly makes me feel like I’m up-to-date with the world around me. My iPhone makes me feel I’m in touch with my friends and business and you get what I’m getting at here, I’m making sense am I? It’s that user experience design is also about how something makes you feel, you as a user. It’s really interesting, I did some multi-variance testing. What are you laughing at?

Marcus Lillington:
I’m hoping this website makes you feel like a web expert. And I expect it probably does.

Paul Boag:
If you scroll down on that page you get to the subscription box, the Boagworld subscription box for our newsletter. Please sign up boagworld.com/subscribe, link in the show notes. And I did multi variant testing on various different headlines there was one which was, subscribe to our weekly newsletter. That was my baseline, I knew that one wouldn’t perform very well. Then I had another one that was, great advice about web design, subscribe to our newsletter. And then I had, become a web expert with our weekly newsletter. So the last one is about super powering people. It got twice the level of click throughs of any of the others, the nearest competitor, and there were more than those. I’ve just kind of summarized them. So people respond really well to it.

Marcus Lillington:
Of course. It’s that – I mean as we’ve always said along the way …

Paul Boag:
By the way, small print, you will not become a web expert if you …

Marcus Lillington:
You might become, you may become a web expert.

Paul Boag:
Prices can go up as well as down.

Marcus Lillington:
As long as what you’re delivering is of value or it’s high quality, then that – as long as you can, a bit like the title of this article. If you are delivering something which it’s claiming to deliver, then that’s fine. Even though it does look a bit link bait-y.

Paul Boag:
But you know I’m not talking about necessarily just kind of headlines and stuff like that. I’m talking about how you position what it is that you offer. Because there are different ways, Evernote is a great example of it. Evernote have got a product that can do lots of different things, right? It’s a task manager, it’s a no taker, it’s a clipper, web clipper, it does all these different things. They could have sold off of any of those things that any of those features, but instead they chose to work off of a premise which is – and it shaped their whole product. Their whole product is built around the fact that they want to help users remember everything. And that hasn’t – that’s not just a strap line. That has shaped their product, and even with my newsletter thing, become a web expert in our weekly newsletter. That is now once I’ve committed to that, I could – you couldn’t just leave it as a strap line. It’s not enough. I now have to fulfill that, promise.

Marcus Lillington:
Every time you write an article you have to think does this deliver?

Paul Boag:
Does this deliver, does this help. And I think that’s where a lot of businesses are getting stuck. They’ve got their marketing department, they’re over here doing their marketing thing and they’re coming up with strap lines like remember everything. But it’s got to filter down into the products and services themselves and shape the entire culture of the organization, entire – I’ve just had someone else subscribe to my newsletter. So I had better follow through now, so that’s what that ping was. So you have got to kind of follow through and make that reality.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s Dan.

Paul Boag:
Dan has probably unsubscribed now. And that’s the kind of – that’s the difficult thing isn’t it? It’s making sure that it’s not just a marketing promise, but it’s built in, baked into the product from the very beginning. It’s like with going back to Apple and the iPod, okay, there were lots of MP3 players already there with lots and lots of features. But what Apple wanted to do is they wanted to put a thousand songs in your pocket. That was their strap line, but it was also what they built. So that was their aim, thousand songs in your pocket, that was what they were doing. And I think where you have got something like remember everything or I’ll help you become a web expert if it’s follow through then that’s really cool. If it’s not, that’s really shit.

Marcus Lillington:
Well, it’s when – that’s when your customers are going to maybe sneer a little and not feel– not get that nice warm feeling. As we’re talking about over lunch about if you’re – if Dan had been under-charged a lot for a meal and he owned up to it rather than going, ha ha, he undercharged me, going look, do you realise what you’ve done. And they said we’ll let you off those three rounds of extra drinks you had and here is another extra round when you come in next time.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So it’s that warm feeling really that we do a lot try and achieve, Apple manages to do it, lots of people manage to do it. I mention golfbreaks.com, they leave me with a warm feeling. But yes, if you don’t – yes, if it’s just marketing talk which is effectively what you were saying …

Paul Boag:
That’s what I’m getting at.

Marcus Lillington:
… then it will just leave you with a cold feeling.

Paul Boag:
Or even further than that, even looking at it from our point of view as web designers, a flashy website and a shit service afterwards. It’s all front and no content.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, no content, that’s it.

Paul Boag:
No reality, no follow-through.

Marcus Lillington:
Flashy website with rubbish content.

Paul Boag:
And this is where I come full circle back to this idea of service design as somebody that’s looking at the service as a whole and how it all fits together. And I think that this is going to be a huge, huge area, I think already it is. But I think it’s going to – it’s one that I think web designers and the digital community are only just waking up to that we mustn’t live in our little bubble. We mustn’t live in our little digital bubble, we have got to be thinking about the whole experience and we have got to be interacting in the whole experience otherwise it falls down.

And it even happens flipping just in digital, right, a customer who shall remain nameless that we have worked with in the past, multi-million pound TV campaign. Then you go to a lovely website landing page of a great website, that fits in perfectly with the campaign and then when you come to the donation it vomits you back into the old system. So it’s not followed through the whole way even within digital let alone if they’ve picked up the phone or let alone if they went into a store or whatever else. It’s all of this that I find is such an interesting area.

But there is still a lot of debate about how best to do that. And how best to make that happen – and it comes back to this theoretical pragmatic debate. And I think it’s just got to begin with – I think there’s a potential for it to begin with digital because digital is the golden child at the moment. Everybody realizes the power and the potential of digital and I think management are beginning to wake up to that, that I think we need to be encouraging organization, we need to be pushed beyond our kind of little bubble and start talking to other people, stakeholders, the person that writes the strap lines and makes these outrageous promises, the person that develops the product or the service or meets the customers, we need to be interacting with these people a lot more than I think we are.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, and if there is bricks and mortar people are running shops and things like that.

Paul Boag:
Yes, absolutely. I think that’s absolutely – all of those things are absolutely vital. But please check out some of the comments in these articles because it’s really interesting and really a well thought through debate about the different ways of doing this. I know that a lot of people disagree with me over this kind of getting somebody in to drive it forward. Jared Spool; interesting, I was having a debate with him, link to Jared Spool, who’s a really, you know, a switched on usability expert and he disagrees with me quite a lot about the way of solving this so I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying this is a big issue. This issue of breaking fitting digitally with the broader picture and how that happens. So there we go, I think that wraps it up for this today. Do we have – oh, a really important thing I must say before we do the joke.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh yes, yes.

Paul Boag:
There is no podcast next week.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
Because I’m in Belgium and I can’t be arsed. And then you’re not there the week after.

Marcus Lillington:
The following week I’m in Cape Verde.

Paul Boag:
Which means the audio quality of the podcast will dive.

Marcus Lillington:
Oh, you’re doing it with Leigh aren’t you?

Paul Boag:
Yes, Leigh knows what he’s doing.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, yes.

Paul Boag:
But I’ll probably have to edit it and that will be bad. It’s going to be terrible.

Marcus Lillington:
Leigh’ll glue it all together, don’t worry.

Paul Boag:
Do you reckon he’ll make it work?

Marcus Lillington:
Of course he will.

Paul Boag:
Okay, yes. Is he a grown up? I’m not …

Marcus Lillington:
No. Leigh is not a grown up.

Paul Boag:
But he can do that. So that should be an interesting podcast. I don’t – I can’t remember the last time I did one without you. Long, long time.

Marcus Lillington:
2005?

Paul Boag:
Probably. No, I’m sure there has been one in between. So yes, just thought we would take a week off next week.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, cool.

Paul Boag:
We are – to be honest we are getting towards the end of this season. I’m running out of things to say, truth to be told. But I’m supposed to drag it out until the book launches on the 16th of March or whenever it is, somewhere around that, but we are never going to do that. So next season I’m going to commit to next season. Because I’ve been faffing over it.

Marcus Lillington:
I’ve forgotten what you’ve said it’s going to be.

Paul Boag:
It’s going to be …

Marcus Lillington:
That’s how riveting it’s going to be.

Paul Boag:
Shut up. People and products.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay.

Paul Boag:
So we’re going to do some interviews because I know a lot of you like interviews. So half the show will be an interview maybe, I’m making this up now.

Marcus Lillington:
Some of the show.

Paul Boag:
Some of the show would be an interview and then some of it will be looking at different products or services online that we really like and why we really like them or maybe a little bit about the person that’s made them.

Marcus Lillington:
That’s a good idea. I mean the reason – I think the reason where we got going back to that is when we did the reviews in the past, people tend to like it.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
So we’re going to do another bit of it.

Paul Boag:
Yes, but I would like to do a bit more people focused as well, not just reviews of, here’s a useful tool for you, but here is a really nice website. So, like, Mike Cruise [ph] has just done – redone his website and he’s made certain decisions, and it’d be great to find out a little bit. And us commenting on why we like the site, those kinds of things. So if you’ve got suggestions of people we should interview or products or websites we should look at, send me an e-mail to [email protected] Don’t know where Boagworld came from?

Marcus Lillington:
I don’t know. Why don’t we just start the next series next time around?

Paul Boag:
Yes, could do.

Marcus Lillington:
Could be? You and Leigh can do the last one of these and then we will start …

Paul Boag:
All right. Well, I need to do – I need to – yes, that will work. So we’ve one more after our break. That’s really stupid.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay, fine.

Paul Boag:
I don’t know, we will come up with something. Nobody cares anyway.

Marcus Lillington:
No one cares, no.

Paul Boag:
All they care is that there’s no podcast next week.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, which there’s no podcast next week.

Paul Boag:
There is no podcast, but there will be one the week after probably.

Marcus Lillington:
Yes. If you can manage to get it out.

Paul Boag:
Who is going to do the joke? Next time me and Leigh do it.

Marcus Lillington:
You’ll have to find one, because this is the – I’m sort of down – This is from Atilla.

Paul Boag:
Atilla.

Marcus Lillington:
Atilla who is from Transylvania …

Paul Boag:
Oh my word.

Marcus Lillington:
All right, so …

Paul Boag:
Is this real?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, probably because it’s not all that good a joke, but I’m down to my kind of last like ones I can’t use, which I’d love to but I can’t.

Paul Boag:
Do people send you naughty jokes?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes they do, or offensive jokes. So this is – but this I am – you’ve heard it before, but it’s because I know that Cindy listens and she works for a law firm and we have to do a lawyer joke.

Paul Boag:
Do we really? Is this what it comes to?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes.

Paul Boag:
The jokes are being dictated by our clients. I’m looking forward to when you do a joke about Chelsea Pensioners and War Veterans. That wouldn’t be at all bad taste.

Marcus Lillington:
I can probably find some. Send me some in.

Paul Boag:
Go on.

Marcus Lillington:
Anyway, so why are lawyers…

Paul Boag:
I hope it’s a – hang on, now I do need to interrupt because this is big law firm that could sue the crap out of us and put us out of business. Are you being rude about lawyers?

Marcus Lillington:
Yes, yes. But there are so many.

Paul Boag:
Oh, this is so dangerous.

Marcus Lillington:
No, it’s not. Why and – this isn’t my joke.

Paul Boag:
The jokes expressed on this podcast do not represent the views of Headscape.

Marcus Lillington:
Atilla’s joke.

Paul Boag:
Atilla’s joke.

Marcus Lillington:
Okay. I can’t believe it. An email from somebody called Atilla.

Paul Boag:
That is awesome.

Marcus Lillington:
Right. Anyway here you go. Why are lawyers buried 24 feet deep?

Paul Boag:
Why are they?

Marcus Lillington:
Because deep down they’re good people.

Paul Boag:
That’s it?

Marcus Lillington:
That’s it. It’s over.

Paul Boag:
You will not hear from Headscape again. Cindy is going to set her many attorneys on us and we will no longer be in business.

Marcus Lillington:
So, cheers then.

Paul Boag:
Yes.

Marcus Lillington:
It’s nice talking to you.

Paul Boag:
Never work for a law firm, It’s scary. You’d better do a damn good job is all I can say. Thank you for listening and we will talk again in two weeks’ time. Bye, bye.

Marcus Lillington:
Bye.

Headscape

Boagworld