An international web
Posted in Site content on: Friday, August 17, 2007 by Paul Boag
I hope you will excuse the slightly self-absorbed nature of this post. It is mainly an apology but also hopefully an opportunity to learn some lessons and look at how communicating on the web is a unique experience.
When I first started the podcast I had a very specific tone I wanted to strike. I wanted it to feel like it was a bunch of mates sitting in the pub talking about web design. A simple enough goal you might imagine but in reality it may well be almost impossible to achieve. Let me explain what I mean…
The apology
Yesterday I received an email from a first time listener to the show complaining about me teasing Americans. At first I thought nothing of it. I have learnt to be fairly thick skinned. Whenever you put content out on the web you are bound to attract criticism from time to time. However, I did post on twitter about it and this kicked off an interesting conversation.
It quickly became apparent that my “jokes” could be seen as offensive by some of my American listeners. So, before I go any further let me say that I am sorry if this is the case. It was certainly never my intention to offend anybody and I will certainly try and tone things done in the future.
Analyzing the mistake
That said, lets go on to look at what went wrong and what broader lessons can be learnt. Lessons which can apply to us all rather than to just an insensitive podcaster.
When you screw up as much as I do you quickly learn to analysis your mistake to avoid repeating history. As a result the email obsessed me for much of yesterday afternoon. Thanks to contributions from Thomas Vander Wal and Anton Peck it quickly became clear that the problem lay in my failure to accept the nature of the medium in which I work. Unlike my original desire for the tone of the show, producing a podcast cannot be like chatting with your mates in the pub. I think there are three specific problems with that premise:
My audience are not my mates – However much I would like to convey that feeling, ultimately my audience do not know me. They do not understand my sense of humor or know that I mean no offense when I overstep the line.
They are not sitting with me – The listeners to Boagworld cannot see me. They cannot pick up on my body language or see the grin on my face. They have only the tone of my voice to judge the intent behind my words. As we all know body language is a huge part of how we understand what is being said.
“The pub” and “mates” are very British centric – Even in my thinking about the tone of the show I was exhibiting a very British outlook on the world. Any web based content is very international in its reach. It isn’t confined to a people group even if that is your intention. Even though the British and Americans speak the same language we have very different cultures. I am not going to embarrass myself by trying to guess the differences. However, I know that when programmes such as the Simpsons or Family guy portray the english as buck toothed, weedy, posh blokes this doesn’t offend me. To me they are poking fun at a stereotype, not me personally. Perhaps this has something to do with the perception of national identity. I don’t know. All I know is there is a difference, a difference that until now I have largely ignored.
Lessons learnt
So enough peering at my navel. What lessons can we learn from this. We all run websites. Most of us blog. We are constantly speaking to a world wide audience. How can we ensure that our communications do not cause offense or indeed drive users away. Here are some suggestions.
Be careful with humor
I think my personal mistake makes it very clear that humor can be a particularly dangerous area. For example British humor is very sarcastic, subtle and self deprecating. There is a good reason why most UK sitcoms don’t do well abroad or have to be remade.
Don’t be fooled by a common language
Just because people are reading your website in your language doesn’t mean they have the same cultural background. I am constantly amazed at how different the english speaking world is. I think the fact that we speak the same language lulls us into a false sense of security. Of course there is also a mass of people who will still read your website, but english is their second language. These need even more care because it is easy for them to misunderstand what you have written if their english is not perfect.
Consider getting a copywriter
If people struggle to understand humor in a podcast, where you can hear somebody speaking, how much more of a problem is it in written word? I often talk about the fact that the copy on your site should be engaging and draw users in. It is hard to do this with the written word alone. How do you communicate enthusiasm, empathy or indeed any other emotion without body language or tone of voice. This is a highly skilled area and I think as website owners we need to seriously consider using professional writers to help us get it right.
Review before posting
Think twice before posting anything. We all know that don’t we? You read through the copy of your website over and over again, right? Same with your blog posts? What about your posts on twitter? Hmm… maybe not :)
Look beyond the written word
Finally, I just wanted to mention that I don’t think this problem of cultural differences and misunderstandings due to medium is limited solely to the written word. We have already seen it applies to audio, but what about the video or the imagery on your site. A lot of websites contain imagery that convey huge cultural meaning. I am not even talking about the obvious stuff like showing bare flesh in an Islamic country. I am talking about the more subtle things too. For example recently I went to a website that offered a service which allows users to record audio messages for the podcast by calling a normal telephone number. I have looked at loads of these sites before and they always only provide a US phone number. Well I arrived at this new site hoping it would be different but took one look at the design and use of imagery and immediately left. The look of the site was so US centric and the stock imagery was full of people who were obviously American that I left before even checking the details.
So there you have it. My screw up, my apology and hopefully some stuff we can all learn from it. Am I going to dramatically change the show? Absolutely not. Am I going to give more consideration to some aspects of how I present stuff? Absolutely.
57 Comments
Comments are for the discussion of this post. If you have other questions / comments then post them to the forum or send me an email
Paul,
I’ve been reading your blog and listening to your podcasts for some time now. I am American and have never felt offended by any of it. It has actually been quite refreshing to read and listen to your material. I hope you don’t change things too much.
Thanks,
Johnny
I shouldn’t have thought that you needed to apologize…
I listen to Boagworld because I’d like to be one of the mates at the pub, and because I enjoy a bit of British-ness in the still very much American-dominated (English-speaking/writing) world of blogging, webdesign, podcasting.
And I really, really, really would miss the waffle, the teasing, the jokes if you left it out and only spoke nicely about webdesign. It might even becoming boring, even though I find webdesign the most interesting subject in the world :-)
Personally, I think if something offends you – turn it off. Why ruin everyone elses fun/sense of humour just because you dont like it? (Within reason of course).
I really, really think you’re taking this too seriously…
I obviously don’t know your listenership stats but from what I gather you already have quite a number of American listeners (contributors too…) who obviously have no problem with your banter.
So one first-time listener is offended? Em…big deal!
Those who complains must be very selfish “dude” ! did reveived much requests ?
I agree with Lisa on a lot.
I’m not even old enough to do anything in a pub but still enjoy the jokes about it – so to speak.
I guess it somewere also reminds me of the British comedy shows I liked to watch.
It might not be very much international and sometimes (two fat ladies) need an extra piece of text to explain them. But without them you’d lose much of the character of your podcast.
I’d even dare to say that people who don’t enjoy you and Marcus talking have probably hang up on it or skip parts they don’t like. All others just very much enjoy it ;-)
Thanks for all the feedback guys. However, I am not intending to change the show really (see the last sentence of my post). I will just focus my piss taking to Marcus who has volunteered for it by coming on the show.
Your right when you say if they don’t like it they can turn it off. My point was more that you don’t want them turning off if it is your corporate website. Its okay with boagworld if I put a few people off. Its not when you are trying to sell something for example.
Anyway, I don’t like to offend and it wont kill me to leave off the American’s for a while. After all they aren’t getting it very easy at the moment.
Time to think of a new nation to take the piss of. Somebody small and who probably don’t listen to the show… hmm…
Well, all right… thanks. Just don’t you dare choose Denmark (you have listeners here) or Greenland (too big)…
I totally agree with Lisa . I see absolutely no reason why you have to apologize for comments you make on the show. Having listened to all the episodes to date, I don’t recall you ever saying anything outrageously offensive. On the contrary, your “bullying” is quite chummy and probably what gives this podcast personality. If we wanted the facts hard and straight, we would listen to BBC news. I really think your ‘buddies in a pub’ idea is a good one. Half of the people would walk away if you stopped the beer and started serving tea instead. The demographic of Boagworld listeners from the US as compared to any other country ought to say something about how your jokes are received.
……..oops! Just saw your post.
That’s the spirit!
Dear Poul & Marcus
I have been listening to your podcast, since the first episode. You are doing a grate job.
Your attempt to try & understand us foreigners (I live in Israel) is Recommendable.
With that said, I have never heard you being cruel or nasty, your sense of humor is not offensive in my book, I hope you will trust your thick skin (which we see is not that thick) in the future. don’t let some easily offended guy spoil my favorite podcast.
Hi Paul,
I am Japanese who lives in Sydney Australia and have an English husband who talks like you, I love English sense of humor! I enjoy your podcast while I am ironing. Stay the way you are.
lovelove xxx
Don’t change a thing! There are plenty of bland podcasts out there, one with a bit of personality is a refreshing change. I seem to remember you taking the mick out of British people too!
As for web design, and this could relate back to the post from Zeldman you recently mentioned. You have to think of your market and use language appropriate to those people and how you want your company to be portrayed to the world. In some cases you may want to be offensive. Lets face it in todays world of marketing, bland is not good, and polarising people is one way you can get results. Not my favourite method personally, but you see plenty of evidence of it ‘on the streets’.
Think about it this way, have you ever had a more polarising topic on your blog, but look at the response you have.
I can’t stand Americans! And I am one. We’re a bunch of egotistical, stuck up, bombing the crap out of other countries, thinking we’re better than everyone else in everything we do, arrogant bastards.
What you said about us was tame…
Much enjoy the show, keep it up!
Paul, that was incredibly insightful. I’m still not sure that an apology was needed, but I’m really impressed with how you took the idea further and considered how international communication affects your web visitors.
Cheers,
Anton
hey Paul i think the American bashing is funny. i say let it fly. i am born and raised in Orlando Florida (USA). and hearing to your podcast is the best part of my working week
Through listening to your podcast I have come to decide that I am probably not a designer but fit in a developer role better. That said I still listen because listening is fun, as well as informative.
Keep up the work and keep it fun.
Paul,
Just like you think you should take into consideration the background of your audience, your audience should likewise take YOUR background into consideration as well.
Anything less is hypocritical on our parts.
I understand your hesitation to offend, and, as the apostle whom you’re named after said, “become all things to all men.” And, if you are a believer in scripture, self application should be made.
But, application could also be made to your listener. Colossians 3:13. Us Americans should “freely forgive” you. I mean, our crassnes and stupidity almost gives you Brits license to poke fun. (haha) It really is true, isn’t it? “All things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous.” 1 Corinthians 10:23, 24
Anyhow, Paul, glad to know you’re not going to change the format of the show. And I’m glad to know that you also concern yourself with good values.
I was going to note that I was kind of(really not that big of a deal) offended as well. That coming from a English man, there’s back at you. :)
I was more in awe by the fact that you mistook his obvious Canadian accent for an American one. Have you learned nothing from your visits to SXSW. No, wait you were hitting the sauce to much down there weren’t you. *grin* Just listen more carefully next time when you hear a Canadian say ‘out’ or ‘about’. Those are usually the big give away for me.
Anywho, apology accepted Paul. Keep up the good work. The interview was superb, well performed, inspiring, and very informative.
Sincerely,
One of your American listeners since show 3
I listened to the recent podcast, with the joke about Americans and I chuckled a bit. I’m an American.
Don’t let up on us Yanks for too long otherwise you might loose your edge. You might even consider putting Noah Webster on your ‘hit list’ for future pissings. We can probably blame him for our taking vacations during the holidays. Thanks for the show, keep up the great work, and I enjoy the banter.
On a side note, I really prefer the way we Americans pronounce ‘innovative’.
Cheers!
Mark
I think I get more than 90% of your humor. I did not take offense at your British vs American comment, I just thought it was odd from my perspective, it seemed like a comment that was just odd. Now seeing it as humor/irony it is a dead on comment in that perspective.
Twitter’s 140 character limit make humor tough to grasp at times. It is why I keep my Tweets closed to just friends as much of my posting is statements I find humorous, in Google searches they are out of context and could be damaging.
Keep up the humor.
Alas, some of my fellow Americans have a bug up their bottom and have nothing better to do than be offended by things. It seems to have replaced baseball as the national pasttime.
God forbid we get exposed to some foreign culture! And what rock have my citzens been living under if they don’t know what a “pub” or “mates” are?
You do not owe us an appology, though it is very stereotypically British of you to do so. ;)
Eagerly awaiting the 2nd series of “The IT Crowd”,
– James Kass
Don’t change a thing.
I’m an American listener since episode 1, and have never been offended or gave things a second thought.
The very “Britishness” is entertaining, actually. More so when you’re trying to ascertain, in real-time, whether a certain colloquialism is U.K. only.
Really now, everybody just chill. (Is that an American usage? Hmm.)
I’ve been an American listener to your podcast from Episode 1. I’ve never been the least bit offended by anything I’ve heard on the show.
It’s true that our cultures are different but a sense of humor helps smooth the bumps in the road.
Another American here… personally I find your parodies of the American accent uproariously funny. As for any ribbing aimed at us Yanks, I’d say we probably deserve much worse :-)
Love your show. I have gotten so much out of it, and I wish I lived in the UK just so I could buy you a round at Ye Olde Cock for your hundredth.
Paul
I think my personal mistake makes it very clear that humor can be a particularly dangerous area.
You don’t need to adopt their fruity spelling in order to be nicer to Americans!
Stiff upper lip old chap.
Paul,
Make fun of us Yanks anytime you want. Just be prepared for some Brit-bashing in return. :)
People choose to get offended. The last thing your podcast should be is politically correct.
What ronald said, keep it up Paul, it’s all in good fun. Some people are just so far into themselves they choose to let silly jokes hurt them.
I like that it sounds like it’s you and marcus sitting at the pub talkin about web stuff :)
On a positive note Paul, you’ll never offend Aussies in this way – our national sense of humour is very much self-deprecating, just like yours!
Keep up the great work.
Paul, an international web means one made of up many nationalities, not one trying to be the same, i.e., trying to be American. I won’t add to the ‘don’t change a thing’ (well – maybe waffle on just a little LESS) comments, but I would like to say that I believe the web enables littler cultures and their idiosyncratic ways. It has come to a pretty pass when today, 96% of the world speaks the top 20 languages, and the other 4% speak 5,500. Not only that, but we are all trying our best to pretend to be Americans, which I am sure they find as insulting as us just being insulting. Let’s stop.
By apologising in such a way, you are becoming the very Family Guy stereotype that many Americans see us British as being – hovelling and weedy. Thanks a lot.
I understand that commercial websites need to be free of too many ‘in-jokes’ and colloquialisms, but blogs? No way. I enjoy the language and personalities of blog writers and podcasters – it’s why I listen to them.
I used to do an IT newsletter for a big UK corporate. It was very popular because of its irreverent tone, jokes etc which people who normally ran from anything IT related, liked and it increased the awareness and skill levels across the teams that received it. Then one senior guy had a bad hair day and got upset over a trivial joke and insisted it went through the PR people before each publication. It killed it stone dead and it died 3 issues later. Moral: You can be too po-faced.
For me, the whole tone of the podcast is spot on. It’s its ‘Britishness’ and jokey tone that make it what it is and if someone gets offended by its tone then frankly they must have a corncob up their ass, to quote Aliens. If someone can’t take the mild level of ribbing, they really need help. Changing the tone of the podcast is NOT what is needed. You can’t please everybody etc.
I can appreciate your consideration for your listeners. But, man, you shouldn’t worry about us Americans or anyone else for that matter. I love your sense of humor and your show. You guys do a great job.
I see no problem with the banter. And certainly if it was all cut out it would all feel too serius. Your podcast has personality and that is great.
I’m English, but I see no real problem and you don’t use every minute of the show talking about the Americans. Personally I think language is too big to worry about offending people. I don’t think you have, and if it has upset anybody nobody would be listening to it.
So the KEY is humour to be successful.
Trust me, you haven’t done anything wrong, and you wouldn’t have made any more podcasts if it was criticised every episode.
It is really too late to worry about it now as you have a big fanbase/listenerbase.
And thanks so much for the podcasts!
Don’t worry, be happy! Don’t let it get you down!
If you take a way the jokes, the banter, the waffle and sarcasm, you will be left with a podcast that reminds us that web design is work… No thanks!!
Granted, I knew there would be trouble over the american jibe.
Hi Paul,
I am an American and I find your sarcasm and banter very amusing. Its always funny to hear you brits make fun of us Americans.
Cherio!
Hi Paul,
The number of Americans that are offended by your ribbing the USA must be in the extreme minority. I certainly find it funny. The only thing you have to apologize for is watching ‘Family Guy.’ ;)
Cheers from Brooklyn, NY.
- Craig
I’m really quite surprised at the responses many of you are giving – apparently very few of you made it to Paul’s illumination on how language can affect one’s website. Instead, many of you are choosing to focus on whether anyone was personally offended (and obviously, no-one that replied is).
Yes, I absolutely 100% agree that in the context of his podcast he can say what he wants, and that jokes can be taken with a grain of salt. Those of us that have been listening for awhile certainly understand what he means – we’re all pals here and we each deserve a good ribbing once in awhile.
We certainly shouldn’t have to walk on glass, but there should be at least some awareness that our language and how we use it may ring different tones across many borders.
Mocking someone’s nationality certainly doesn’t seem very harmful, but nationality is just a stone’s throw away from gender, religion, age, and even skin-color. And in the context of the written word, a sentence can change it’s entire meaning because of slightly alternate interpretations of it.
Read the article again please, especially the last half.
Paul,
I have listened to your podcast and read your blog for awhile now and as an American have never been offended by what you have said. I find it refreshing to listen to another persons view on web design especially from overseas. Keep up the good work you buck toothed, weedy, posh bloke! :) (Remember; making fun of stereotype) Thanks Paul for maintaining a wonderful resource for web designers throughout the world. Thanks again,
Cadore
Blimey… you go away for 2 weeks… :-)
Paul
I saw the apology first and wondered what on earth you’d said! Turns out it wasn’t too offensive going by the comments (I have to go by the comments because I have an English sense of humour too and can’t tell whether it’s offensive!). Have to say that it’s Marcus’ post that made me chuckle most!
Colin
Keep making those jokes about Americans, it’s all in good fun. I’m sure you have heard jokes about “How better off the world would have been without the English?” (see Brave Heart haha) but it’s just stereotypes and people shouldn’t get offended. If they do, I think it’s because they themselves are self-conscious about who they are and what their country has done and that’s when they get offended.
PS – I’m Italian and Canadian so there isn’t much that can offend me. No matter what you say about Italians, I don’t mind cause our food is great! And really, what bad can you say about Canadians??? eh?
As an Irishman living in the states, and a passionate follower of you and the Great Marcus “As I too am on the sales end of web solutions”. I actually enjoy it when you take the piss out of Americans, Because your right.
I would however maybe curb your use of “Awesome” you only went to Texas for a few days – LOL !!!
Cheers Declan
As an American, I love your “British centric” sense of humor and chattiness. Don’t stop! It is what makes you, and this podcast, unique. You can’t please everyone (especially online). Everyone should learn to get a sense of humor about themselves and move on.
As an American, keep doing what you do…I enjoy the show!
Maybe a bit more on Jeremy Keith, Greenland and Marcus …of course
Paul,
You are totally awesome!! (If I remember correctly, that came from an early podcast where you first made reference to American listeners) LOL. But you really are awesome, rad, cool, etc…
I’m from the USA and after listening to 90 (give or take a few) of your podcasts, I have found that you want nothing better then to promote a positive influence when it comes to web design. I mean, where in the world would 30,000 listeners be without Paul Boag!?!?! (You would probably find less sites created with web standards ;) ) And I hope all your listeners have come to know that you REALLY don’t have an overinflated EGO. That you take the time to share your knowledge and experience with anyone who wants to hear it. But you have a light hearted spirit and your long time listeners love it.
Keep up the great work! Love listening both you and Marcus! I’d have to say I really like the format of the show this year! Ask an expert section has been incredible! Not too mention Marcus’s insight to the biz and of course, Paul, I very much enjoy your introduction “babble”, news, and reviews!!! DON’T STOP!!
“My audience are not my mates”
Oh yes we are!
“Humor can be a particularly dangerous area. For example British humor is very sarcastic, subtle and self deprecating.”
Oh come one, don’t be such a drama queen xD
BTW, the only American I know without sense of humor is Bush.. was it him? Bingo!
“My audience are not my mates”
Oh yes we are!
“Humor can be a particularly dangerous area. For example British humor is very sarcastic, subtle and self deprecating.”
Oh come one, don’t be such a drama queen xD
BTW, the only American I know without sense of humor is Bush.. was it him? Bingo!
IT MAY BE SILLY, BUT THAT’S NOT THE POINT.
Hi Paul. I am fresh off your your last podcast, and I hope this fuss didn’t mess up your “holiday”. Let me begin by saying that I am an American from the midwest (central part) of the country. I’m happy I’m American, and won’t condem Americans or our elected leadership as a method of encourageing endearment like some have done during this discourse.
The real issue I see is a good one. As podcasting becomes more “mainstream”, we have a decision. Do we keep things as loose as we did when we were talking to ourselves? Or do we fall prey to the dangers of polictical correctness that has turned the other mainstream media outlets (TV, Radio, Hollywood, and our western governments both north american and across the pond)? One of the reasons we love the podcast format is that it creates a sense of global community. However, as this community grows, the sensabilities of that community becomes more complicated.
We don’t want to admit it, but polictical realities, social issues, and prejudices affect each of our information filters. Do podcasts and social communites have to adjust to increase patronage across a larger bisection, or do we stay the course and let some users leave the fold, eventually capping our growth?
Last thing, in my neck of the woods, we pronounes inovative as in-oh-vA-tive, with a hard A sound. Might be easier to anounciate. But, you might be accoused of sounding like an ugly american. I guess it’s all about trade-offs.
I invite comments to my email: t.webstuff@gmail.com
Trace
Hey Paul,
As a Security Gaurd working overnights, I depend on your podcasts to keep me awake during the wee hours. I listened to the episode in question and found nothing offensive about the comments that were made. Please don’t censor yourself or any of your show content. Political Correctness is an American disease that has plagued my country for years and it shows no signs of ceasing anytime soon. That doesn’t mean that the podcasts That I love have to suffer from this ignorant social mindset. I hope you will continue to ‘take the piss’ out of the USA….With any luck we may develop a sense of humor. Keep Up The Good Work.
Josh
West Palm Beach, FL U.S.A.
Paul, I personally am from the united states, and I have always loved your jokes poking fun at Americans. I am sad to here some people have no sense of humor. If we can’t laugh at each other at least a little, we are all taking our self’s to seriously.
Love the podcast, keep up with the good work.
C’mon, Paul! You know there’s always going to be someone, somewhere that takes offense. Take the latest distress from the East about the footballs that the Americans handed out… get real people.
I’m Irish. You’re more than welcome to take the piss out of me individually or by nationality. Just be warned that I may question your recent Test series against India, last rugby match against Ireland, or that funny habit you guys have of stopping everything to have a cup of tea.
Whatever you do, do NOT sacrifice any more of your personality in order to be more PC. As an Englishman you’re not exactly starting out from a position of strength in that score anyway ;)
Paul, the real value in your podcast may very well be it’s edgy-ness (for want of a better word!). Don’t homogenise and purify it too much; you can’t be everything to everybody. That means that some will just not like (or even be offended by) your great work.
You can’t please all of the people all of the time.
I’m personally of the opinion that the more localised an online service is, the better. I mean, it’s all well and good if you’ve got a Digg or Google on your hands and can provide a great service to the entire English-speaking world at once, but the simple fact is that building a website in England is almost always going to be a different challenge to building a website in America (or Ireland, or Australia etc.)
To put it another way; how many U.K. clients are likely to be asking for their websites to be made iPhone-friendly? Or how many U.S. website owners are concerned about U.K. disability discrimination laws? While a nationality-agnostic website/podcast might discuss Net Neutrality or the issue of U.S. legislation on gambling websites, as a Brit I’m not really bothered about how the American’s govern themselves- but I would be interested in hearing about how those issues might affect website owners and users outside the U.S. (something that you’re unlikely to hear from a site that focusses it’s interest on the majority of web users- which happens to be those living and working in the U.S.)
I would guess that to the average U.K. listener, the odd anti-american joke is more likely to get someone feeling on your side than to get their backs up, while an American working in web design in the U.K. is likely to be familiar with (and accepting of) the British sense of humour.
‘Localisation’ or ‘regionalisation’ can be a significant strength- embrace it!
I think that this post is very insightful and that the points you raise are good enough to talk about on your next podcast.
;)
Just want to join the quire, and anything positive said about this podcast.
Why?
Because it is splendid, as you British say.
And as fare as finding a new nation to take the piss out of…I give you Norway.
Norwegians are a selfish, self centered bunch of “wana be Americans”.
So Norway would be just PERFECT (I should know, I am Norwegian).
And by the way, Norwegians just adore British humor and sitcom (they don’t need to understand to have a good time).
Keep up the good work, and one day even Norwegians maybe will understand web standards and accessibility. Cos so fare, talking about those kind of things, around thees parts of the woods. Will only get you weird looks (at the best).
You wouldn’t believe it, but most people around here, don,t even know what a podcast is, let alone web standards.
I have a friend who is a web designer ( at least he think he is). But when I mention web standards ore accessibility, ore the fact that we don’t use tables for everything any more, he gets pissed, and leave!?.
So believe me, Norway is perfect.
POS’n