How to make failing fast work for your team

Paul Boag

This week on the Boagworld Show we are joined by Chris Gollop to discuss moving away from PSDs, enforcing discipline and failing fast.

Skip to the discussion or this week’s links.

This weeks show is sponsored by Resource Guru and Invision.

Paul: Hello and welcome to the Boagworld show, the podcast about user experience, digital strategy and a whole lot more. In fact this season where mainly focusing on digital management problems. Joining me as always is Marcus. Hello Marcus!

Marcus: Good afternoon Paul, how are you?

Paul: Good afternoon? Aren’t we very formal today.

Marcus: Drinking tea and everything.

Paul: How British of you. We also being joined by Chris – how do you say your surname? Gollup?

Chris: It’s Gollup. You are one of the few people that said it correctly.

Marcus: That’s a first for Paul.

Paul: I am normally terrible at names so that’s an encouraging sign. So Chris, nice to meet you. It’s really interesting this is because Chris just emailed us out of the blue and said, hey I see you are doing a series on digital management and I wondered whether I could come on the show? And we said yes. So Chris this is the first time that we’ve actually spoken isn’t it?

Chris: It is.

Paul: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. You’re in Spain aren’t you?

Chris: Yes. I was getting a bit jealous just listening to you asking Marcus about that cup of tea because it’s difficult to find good tea over here.

Paul: Yes betray that off for gorgeous sunshine and nice the weather.

Chris: Yes, the weather is not bad.

Paul: So where are you in Spain and how did that come about?

Chris: That’s quite a big questions I’ve been over in Spain for eight years now and I started after university and that was with a touring theatre company based in Madrid, so we were basically travelling around Spain to all the different provinces and it was a crazy job, doing 200 shows in a year. It was quite a mad time. But then I moved over to Valencia and I’ve been living in Valencia now for the following seven years.

Paul: Hang on a minute, so you started off with a travelling theatre company and your now a digital project manager? Just how did that happen exactly?

Chris: Well, as most English people who come over here to live in Spain a lot of them do it when they finish university, they teach English. So most of the English people that I know over here I doing classes in English but I was interested also, while I was teaching English, I was interested in front-end design. I started learning HTML and CSS and building websites which I miss building websites from scratch but obviously then I went into CMS and into WordPress and Joomla! and Drupal and started building websites that way. On the strength of that really I, I host my own podcast, I created my own websites and did a few friends and just got into the web that way. While I was doing that, and forgive me for the long story, but I was teaching English to students in Valencia. We’d been doing the classes for two years and then for some reason we stopped the English classes and they got back to me you will later and said there’s an opportunity here at the company the someone who understands the web and nose were talking about and is English. Surreally essentially the reason I got this job is purely because I’m a native English speaker that understands a little bit about the web.

Paul: Okay, I see. So do you have an in-house team would you rely on external agencies? How does it work?

Chris: The team here, and this is a marketing agency, but we cover pretty much everything from SCO and use lots of different platforms and so the team is made of 40 people working here and we have offices in Madrid and Columbia in South America and various other agencies locally. In the case of the United States we just got a local manager working there directly with the company. We don’t outsource no, we’ve got departments here, design and SCO a different account departments here as well.

Paul: Okay, so quite a big organisation then?

Chris: Yes it’s surprisingly big.

Paul: So whereabouts in Spain are you based? Are they a Spanish-based company or did they start in Spain?

Chris: Yes, here in Valencia. It’s what translates to a technology park and we work in a big office there. The company started in Valencia and it had been running before that and so is about 15 years old in total.

Paul: I’ve never been to Valencia. Marcus, have you been to Valencia? You seem to have been most places.

Marcus: I have. Many, many, many years ago I used to rent a villa, this was before kids came along and it was a friend of a friend’s villa that was just outside Valencia. In two or three weeks ago I recently came back from Spain but had been quite a bit further south down Almeria way but I’m quite envious of you.

I’ve still got to come back into the, you were in a touring theatre group…. We are you acting or singing or what?

Chris: Both.

Marcus: Oh right, excellent. But that wasn’t you was it? Or was it for you but you had to make a sensible step? Because that sounds a bit like me that was the case.

Chris: That’s just from my youth really, I’ve always enjoyed being on stage which is weird because I’m quite a shy person really when I meet people. But I’ve got this weird masochistic obsession with being on stage so when I got this job, it was doing shows to Spanish students in secondary school so you turn up at a theatre with a little van and all of the setting it and then you’d had to settle for the stuff and basically sing songs. The idea and the way that they market it is that this is a learning English experience but is not really, it’s more like messing about going mad and Spanish kids are great and have fun.

Paul: That sounds good.

Marcus: Fantastic.

Paul: Better than a proper job. I am now planning my next holiday in Spain. I’m thinking it might be time to take the motorhome down to Spain because I’m sitting in it right now, looking out at vineyards, so I could be in Spain.

Marcus: Where are you at the moment then Paul? Because he looks very pretty in the pictures that are popping up on Facebook.

Paul: It’s near the Forest of Dean. I had a workshop with UCAS and the in-laws decided with my wife that it would be nice to go away somewhere in the motorhome. But I have this meeting with UCAS who are in Cheltenham, so we thought let’s look for somewhere pretty within reach of Cheltenham. So we ended up in the Forest of Dean and it’s probably the nicest camp spot we’ve ever had. They grow cider here and they’ve got a vineyard and it’s all very pretty.

Marcus: They grow cider? That’s pretty impressive.

Paul: You know what I mean. So rude. But it’s a really nice side as well, is the kind of side of the makes your cheeks suck in. Do you know what I mean?

Marcus: Yes I do.

Paul: I’m salivating at the thought of it. So if the audio quality for me isn’t quite as good today, that’s why. I am holidaying. There is only so much commitment that I have got towards the podcast. It’s not going to stop me travelling. But yes, taking the motorhome down to Spain that sounds quite fun. Need to do that.

Anyway, before we get onto the questions this week, just to remind everybody that this season of the show we are answering all of your questions about digital management issues. So if you have got questions you can drop them to me by emailing them to Paul@boagworld.com or alternatively you can go to boag.world/questions. So anything you are struggling with in terms of managing projects, people, digital transformation, user experience, whatever you want really, we are happy to take those questions and answer them. We’ve got a load that we’re going to cover in a minute but before that I just want to briefly talk about our sponsor for this week, which is Invision. They are supporting a vast majority of this season so I really appreciate their support.

We talked about Invision before on this show but we’ve talked about their prototyping and their design tools, we’ve talked about the amazing free plug-ins that they offer but actually the suite of tools that they offer is a lot more than just the ability to prototype design. You can also present designs which is absolutely superb and it provides a really great way of doing that and it allows you to create multiple versions of a design which is obviously hugely important if you think about it because what happens is you produce a prototype then you presented to the client and the client wants changes and so you have to make this changes and so it goes on and you end up with lots and lots of versions and then of course when you start doing usability testing as well on top of that, that further increases the amount of changes that you’ve got to make.

So what Invision does is allow you to have multiple boards where you can have different iterations of your design over time and so it accommodates all of that. It’s got so many great tools involved in it. And, on top of which have discovered that it can also be used to create stylise which is incredibly useful as well. So definitely check them out as it’s a really great tool. A lot of that is available for free and certainly you can do your prototyping for free but you guys listening to this show, they are also offering a free three-month trial where you can have unlimited prototypes, you can do mobile usability testing and you got all those versions that I’ve mentioned. To get those free three months, go to boag.world/invision and enter the code INV-BOAG and you can try it all out, everything that they offer, all the cool things for three months for free. Try saying that fast multiple times. But enough of that, let’s talk about our questions.

Discussion with Chris

Paul: So we’ve got three questions this week to discuss and the first one is from Darryl Snow. Darryl is asking about PSD’s as deliverables. He says, how do we finally move on from PSD’s as deliverables to more practical useful design systems when project owners want to see and sign off full page pretty pictures which they incorrectly assume are still and always will be the industry standard. So I’m quite interested first of all, first of all I think we need to clarify this question is what he means here. Because there’s two ways to interpreting it. Either he’s talking about delivering PSD’s actually as final deliverables that then go off to a developer who cuts them up and that kind of stuff. Do either of you guys do that anymore?

Marcus: We still get requests for that and 99 times out of 100, we always explain to the person requesting it’s that that is not what they really want and what the developer wants is actually something in CSS, so we can deliver the designs as they are meant to be rather than pictures of the designs. We have had one example recently and I think it was with Nestlé where there was a particular piece of technology that meant that HTML and CSS wasn’t a valid deliverable and so we did actually deliver PSD’s in that case, but that is really, really rare. That harks back to the late 90s and early 00s. So I don’t think that’s what he means in this case, I think we talking about static comps.

Paul: Yes, I think we are too. So what about that Marcus, does Headscape still do static comps?

Marcus: Yes, but only a little bit. I probably talked about in the past on the show that we’ve split up the design process into anaesthetic line of working and a more content and layout base which is where we will develop a prototype. The prototype deals with content, how things are laid out, what the hierarchy is within the content and that kind of thing and we will be looking at how things respond at different widths as part of the prototype. On the other side of it we do like to do just a couple of static comps just to ensure that we are going in the right direction from a design point of view before we can start to build HTML or CSS. We haven’t finished the design process at all of that point, we just got a direction and then will continue working with the client on signing off different aspects of the design during the build. So yes, a little bit of both but still we haven’t completely ditched the static comp because it’s still useful in certain circumstances.

Paul: What about you Chris? You are in a slightly different circumstance in that you are working at a digital marketing agency so it’s more campaigns and that kind of thing but do static comps still play a role with you?

Chris: Not so much. I’ve never really been a fan personally of showing static mock-ups as part of the signoff to a client because I think sometimes you look at the static mock-up and it’s so perfect that you can just think, really is a good look like that on every single device in the world? So I’ve always preferred to actually have the clients going into the URL and adjusting the browsers themselves and having a look at how the final model will work and how the menu will drop down and things like that but I suppose just looking at static mock-ups and a lot of the time we have to work to brand guidelines, but more in the presentation stage of the campaign where we talk about what it is that we’re going to do in the early stages, then at that point just to give an idea we would be using static mock-ups.

Paul: It’s a really tricky one Darryl, because if you are still designing desktop sites and you’re not worrying about alternate devices then yes, I guess you could just about get away with showing a client static comps. But the moment you start getting into responsiveness and the moment there is multiple devices involved, what exactly is the client wanting to see? Are they wanting to see the desktop version or a mobile version and if so, what size screen mobile version or size desktop version? What about tablet devices? So that’s what I would be tempted to go back to them and say, what am I showing you here? Now there are often reasons why they may not want a static comp. Maybe they are giving a presentation on something like that, but actually I think doing them something like a video or a screen cost video where you show them the design expanding and contracting and working on different devices might be a better way of going because you can also then show interactive elements like carousels or expandable and collapsible areas of the screen or like CSS animation. Also if it’s a video, you can explain what’s going on over the top of it.

So I would push back over this and basically use the argument of a website is an interactive thing and so we want to be able to show you the interactivity which you can’t do through a static comp and also website doesn’t have a set canvas size so we can’t show that fire a static comp either. So I think really it’s about explaining the multi-device world that we now live in and that probably will provide you with enough justification that you need for them not to be signing off on pretty pictures. As Marcus says, that doesn’t mean you can’t show them at the very early stages a static desktop version just to start a conversation about branding, that’s kind of okay I guess.

Marcus: Absolutely. What you are saying about providing a walk-through of the reasons why you’ve done something apply at all stages, whether you are doing a static comp, whether you are doing a video. I think if we were showing a static comp we would refer back to the prototype that I mentioned earlier to show how certain pieces of functionality such as the Carousel for example, we would be including that inside the prototype so you can show a static comp of a particular page and then show the prototype and as you are making video, say that this is how this particular piece of functionality would work. So I think don’t just show people a picture of a website and say what you think of it because then you are going to have lots of pain if you do that. You need to ensure that there is a narrative that goes along with it, explaining all the reasons why you’ve done things and how certain elements will work when they are actually built.

Chris: Looking on the pessimistic side of things, a live demo can throw up some pretty nasty errors when you do start changing the screen sizes. You can have modules that you didn’t expect to behave as they behaved so you are running a bit of a risk there when you use something like that as a sign off to a client. They might say, woah, what is this? Why is this font changed size or something? Using a video you are then taking away that risk.

Paul: It also means you don’t have to make it work across all browsers because you don’t know what browser the client might look at it in, while with a video you could make it work in Safari or chrome or whatever browser you are using and just record it. That’s why am such a great fan of videos.

Marcus: again, the reason why we want to move away from this, as I was saying earlier when we have 20 different page mock-ups, and I think Chris mentioned this, that you are creating a rod for your own back in that these page mock-ups are going to look perfect and then when you start building and the client views it in a different browser to the one that the developers using, then they are going to start coming back and saying that the doesn’t look like the design you showed me. See got to be careful about this and explain what you are showing people and how it’s going to work once is built if you do decide to go down that route.

Paul: So Chris in your situation, I am imagining building a series of campaigns for a particular client. How does that work from a work and workflow management point of view? I’m just trying to get a feel of how you guys operate in terms of your role and what a typical project would look like. Because you have retainers to you with clients where they come on to you for an entire series of campaigns over a year or do they come due for individual things, have set operate?

Chris: It generally takes the form of a retainer so you would have a year-long project with a client and the results are based over that year with reports delivered monthly on how those campaigns are going. Looking at me as a project manager there is a lot of things that the client really doesn’t see. We can show them the design and they are always really interested in mostly the copy. That’s what these companies are interested in, they are interested in more the value proposition than the actual design and functionality of the website. They never really see the workflows and they never really see the background as to just how all of this is working behind a campaign. So in certain email but is clicked through will then initiate a following email three days later and might redirect to a different landing page or something like that. I pretty much oversee that, that all comes from the inbound designers that we have got in the company but I will oversee that as a whole just to make sure everything is in place and everything is working.

Paul: That’s quite interesting because when you are running campaigns there must be a degree of trial and error in terms of what works and what doesn’t. As the project goes on do you adapt and measure as you are going? Or is it just a one-hit, here we go kind of thing?

Chris: I think if anybody who isn’t adapting is definitely doing it wrong. Everything is about testing everything. Email subjects just springs to mind but obviously if you’re not AB testing your email subject then something is not right because you really need to be making sure that the subject and getting that clicked onto that email is getting as many people clicking through as possible. That’s just on a small scale but when you are looking at call to actions within the landing pages and making sure that the design is right and testing different colours, a lot of the platforms nowadays offer plug-ins to do AB testing so everything gets AB tested and you really do need to adapt to the results of the campaign. It’s preferable when you start with a conversion rate of 10% or something like that is not realistic but that’s inevitably not the case.

Paul: That brings us on to the second question which is by Chris Perry, who says, how can digital project managers ensure that the products that they are shipping can be supported through their life cycle against the backdrop of fail fast and fail often. If your campaigns are being tweaked and tested and changed through their life cycle, surely that creates quite a project management logistical overhead?

Chris: Do you mean like actually organising the team to be able to carry out these tests as the campaigns go on?

Paul: Yes, how does that work? What’s the process for managing those kind of constant AB testing and changes through the project? Does that fall to you or are there other people that do that?

Chris: Well it depends what that test is. If you have a button on a webpage for example you want the photo to match that button in some way or perhaps of somebody looking at the button. So the photo has got somebody’s eyes going towards that button and if that’s not the case then switching the button to the other side of the page, obviously depends on the Department because there I would be looking at the web design team, whereas in the case of email workflows and things like that, who is clicking on which emails, I would be going to the SEO team for them to be checking the subjects because those guys are pretty good keywords. So as a project manager you just get a feel for who in the company does what. The moment I have a problem here I know I want to improve this and I should go talk to a certain man to talk to about emails.

Paul: It’s an interesting question from Chris because I’m not sure I actually see a huge problem in this. How can digital project managers ensure that their shipping can be supported through their life cycle against the backdrop of fail fast and fail often. I don’t think the two unnecessarily mutually exclusive really. Do you Marcus? Am I missing something here?

Marcus: This is referring more to application development I think than the corporate website design that we tend to do at Headscape. Where we try and bring on this fail fast, fail often mind-set is in the prototype development phase. That is where we want to I guess, the shipping is to the client rather than to the world and we want to develop things quickly that we can change easily and that we can test very quickly and build things very quickly and that’s what prototyping is for and that’s where we will do our fail fast, fails often part of the work.

Paul: But even when you’re talking about building a digital service or an application, in my mind there is a cycle that you are passing through that continues all the time isn’t there, which is, you design a prototype, you test the prototype and you refine it, you can continue to iterate and eventually you deploy, so that is a fairly consistent workflow that a digital project manager can support. And it’s through that testing and iteration that there is your failing fast and failing often. I don’t think that’s a worth throwing shit at live and saying it’s good enough, that is not what failing fast is about. It’s about having an environment where you can experiment before you develop properly.

Marcus: I think maybe the angle of the question is coming from if you have a product owner or a business owner who continually says it’s not good enough yet, is not polished enough, that kind of thing. How do you deal with that?

Paul: That’s when you get into the realms of minimum viable products. The rule of thumb I use about when to push something live is actually a very, very simple one which is when is it better than what you already have up? Unless you work in a start-up or something like that there is normally something already there. So as soon as you’ve got something that is better than what is already there, surely that is worth doing. But that’s quite an interesting question for you Chris when you’re talking about campaigns. How’d you know whether a campaign is good enough to start pushing it out?

Chris: As your experience grows and especially with each client then you start to get a feel for what is expected from each of these and you don’t unlearn any of the experience that you gain in previous campaigns. All of that experience goes through to new campaigns which technically means that although it’s probably not 100% true, new campaigns tend to start on at least a good foot if not exactly what you want, then new campaigns are already nicely rounded and you’ve got a good idea of the work and what you really want behind the campaign.

Just going back to the question and the life-cycle question, launching a website and once that website is complete, then it’s the hands of the client and I work here is done. Is that right?

Marcus: Not in our case no. And again not in the case of every client but in the vast majority of clients that we work with, we will continue to support them and that’s not just reactive support, is proactive support as well where we will be making suggestions about how the site could be improved. We like to work with our clients going forward but it’s not as intensive as the original build. That’s why I was referring particularly to the prototyping phase being where we will be failing fast and failing often and relating to this particular question. I guess I could apply the same argument or logic once we have gone past life but it’s not as in-depth process I suppose.

Paul: Because I’m guessing that as you got an ongoing relationship, that’s a different set up for you Chris. What am interested in your setup is that you test a campaign before it goes out?

Chris: Only in a sense of logic. The emails are sent and we have specialists set aside for people to fill in forms and make sure all the emails are clicking through to the right place, so in that sense yes they are tested internally.

Paul: You’re not testing headlines for example on people or doing usability testing or response testing on a small group of people of anything like that?

Chris: We will do AB testing and occasionally we will be using a previous database of clients that have shown interest in a certain product so we will split 20% of those people away and use them as a campaign and see how that goes on check results of it and then send that to the next 80% two weeks later.

Paul: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Anyway let’s move on to our last question before we run out of time completely. This is from Greg and he refers to it as being to do with agile but actually I don’t think it is. I think is just a question that just applies. He says, if agile is being followed, what tips are there for product owners to enforce discipline as they should be the gatekeepers the decision-making but really are?

So this question for me boils down to, how’d you keep control of your project and how do you enforce discipline within a project? Because, I guess he is right in the sense that agile makes this worse because it’s got this very inclusive thing that everybody has to be on board et cetera, see you get designers wanting to do their thing and developers becoming obsessed with something else. How’d you pull it all back together? Be interested from your perspective Chris, of what are your tips of keeping control?

Chris: Well I’m good start here by saying, I came into this company six months ago so this question from me has been a massive learning process over the last six months some not exactly the industry expert that can say to someone this is how you should do it, because for me it’s been an eye-opening six months in man management and trying to figure out, especially in a Spanish company as well because I speak Spanish as well but I do miss some of the things and people are speaking really fast to me.

So am I the gatekeeper decision-making? I think that comes down to people management really, making sure that everybody has everything that they need. My focus question to Marcus?

Paul: It’s quite an interesting one Marcus because it’s a fair comment as I know and I been watching you interact with people in Headscape for years. I’ve watched you deal with certain potentially quite difficult people at some occasions and I’m interested in how you do that? How in your mind, whether you have any tips or practices you use for dealing with more challenging to situations and keeping control?

Marcus: It’s a balance. The number one rule is don’t ever get riled. Rise above always and had a bit of an example of that earlier today actually and I have to say all of the Headscape people involved were fantastic actually, bless them. I going to go slightly often a bit of a tangent and I think there is a relevance to agile here. I think that if you are working in an agile situation, which I don’t do that much, I don’t think it’s easier for people to go off piste and start making stuff up as they go along. And that’s kind of part of the beauty of it. This idea of not writing great big specification documents before you start working on something is kind of appealing. However, where you might pay for that is that people start making decisions without a gatekeeper or without the set of rules. The set of rules obviously being a statement of work. So I will, if push really comes to shove, refer back to what we’ve agreed we were going to do in writing. And that really does focus people’s minds because we’ve all agreed on something and we signed it. I guess that’s harder if you are just doing a sprint. We going to aim to do something by the end of this period, which is a lot more fluid and a lot more agile but more likely I think to go off piste.

Paul: I see what you mean. But the way I deal with that in an agile situation is we’ve got user story cards that very specifically layout what user needs we are trying to fulfil. Then also at the beginning of each sprint you need to sit down and discuss and agree between you how you are going to fulfil that. See you are coming up with a set of functionality as a group. So it is almost like a statement of work, it is a statement of work that the group together decides upon at the beginning of a sprint.

Marcus: And the product owner has to be part of that so that all the decision-making doesn’t go off track.

Paul: Yes and is also daily stand-ups as well where you will know what the person was doing yesterday, you’ll find out what they are doing today and you know what barriers there are. So that’s an opportunity to grab things and pull them back on track if they are going a bit off piste as Marcus put it. But it does involve some strength, at the end of the day you are the product owner and you own this product see you have to be happy with what is being produced. You are the clients for the project. Agile doesn’t negate that. There is still someone signing off at the end of the day and that is you. So you do need to be forceful over it and you do need to stand up for what you want. I think the danger comes when you don’t know what other people are going off and doing and that’s why things like creating that specification upfront and having the user story cards and being a part of the daily stand-ups is so, so important.

A lot of times product owners aren’t always involved in every stand-up meeting because they are too busy doing other things. When you can’t have it both ways. You can’t keep control of the situation if you are not actively engaged with that situation. That would be my feelings on it.

Chris: I find personally that when you got local companies here in Valencia that want to use our inbound marketing agency to help them grow their leads and grow their business and they are making quite a big investment against their revenues, they can be quite on top as to exactly what they require. They want to make sure that everything is being done exactly like this and if it’s not perfect then they almost feel that because they are making such a big input into the agency they want almost to control the team and say this is exactly how I want it, and you shall create it as is.

Paul: At the end of the day, they are within their rights to do that. They are paying the bills and they could do it that way. What I would do is go back to them and say in situations like that is that they are not getting very good value for money. What’s that stupid phrase about getting a dog and wagging the tail yourself? It’s the idea that they are hiring you to do a job and then they are basically dictating that job and how that job is to be done and not getting your expertise. They are not getting the full range of creativity that you’ve got to offer if they are dictating everything themselves. If they want to do that and they want to reduce you to a pixel pusher or a technician that’s essentially delivering on their vision, then that’s absolutely fine, but they are paying a rate of somebody who is going to come up with a creative solution for them and deliver it and get better results. So that’s their call in a sense. It’s a difficult one mind because some clients do want to micromanage.

Marcus: I think this comes down to the person who is sold the work in the first place and it’s their job to get across the ethos of the agency or in your case, your company Chris, to get potential clients understand that is how you work and what you are going to bring to the table and also what is expected of the client as part of that process as well. If you do that you can then outline how you would like an ideal project to work and talk about how micromanagement isn’t a good idea. As Paul was saying, you’re not getting the best out of us if you do that. Some people might say that’s not what I want. I want you to be digitally at my beck and call and do what I say, and then it might be that you decide that it’s not a good relationship in that case, but have the conversation upfront.

Paul: When I was still at Headscape we always used to say that if you don’t want someone to challenge you and suggest ideas, don’t hire us. We pretty much said that at meetings.

Okay will wrap that up and move on but I think we talked about that quite long enough.

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Okay Marcus, do you have a joke for us to wrap up?

Marcus: I do. I’m a little bit concerned though that is only going to be potentially funny to the UK audience.

Paul: Well let’s be honest, they are the only audience that matter. He says alienating over 50% of the listeners!

Marcus: Well maybe this particular product is sold elsewhere around the world?

This joke is from Milton Jones.

‘I did have a drinking problem. Southern Comfort tasted quite nice. Ordinary Comfort tasted like fabric softener’.

Paul: Hahahahaa! I was going to say that people will know what Southern Comfort is, I was thinking what’s the problem – that’s sold in America. But do people know that Comfort is a fabric softener?

Marcus: Will never know.

Paul: Well we will because I’m sure people will tell us when this show comes out.

So okay just a reminder to send in your questions. You can post them as comments at boag.world/questions or you can just email me at Paul@boagworld.com.

Thank you so much Chris for coming on the show and I hope you enjoyed it, it was really great to get a different insight on things being from a digital marketing background.

Chris: It was a pleasure, thank you for having me on the show, I appreciate it.

Paul: So next week we have Holly coming on the show. If you don’t know Holly then shame on you because she’s really cool and she’s coming on the show next week to talk about lots of really cool things. I have no idea what questions are going to be but Holly doesn’t make many public appearances so you are very honoured for her to be joining us. You have to find out all about her then.

But thanks listening and goodbye!

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