How to Run a Successful Digital Business

Paul Boag

This week on the Boagworld Show, we chat about the challenges and advantages of running your own digital businesses from freelance life to managing a team.

This episode of the Boagworld show is sponsored by Frontify, Adskills and LinkedIn Jobs.

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Paul Boag: This week on the Boagworld Show, we chat about the challenges and advantages of running your own digital business from freelance life to managing a team. This episode of the Boagworld Show is sponsored by Frontify and AdSkills and LinkedIn jobs.

Paul Boag: Hello. Welcome to the Boagworld show. This season the show is a series of virtual meetups of [inaudible 00:00:40] recorded live and attended by drop in guests, which makes for interesting shows. I’ve no idea what we’re going to be talking about and that feels really weird. The one constant however, in this season of the show is Marcus. I would be lost without you Marcus.

Marcus L: What a lovely thing to say, Paul. I need things to be said to me right now.

Paul Boag: Because you’re still feeling poorly.

Marcus L: Yeah, little bit. Not sleeping very well because I’ve got this naughty tickly cough and you just want to sleep during the day and I’m awake all night. It’s one of those.

Paul Boag: Oh yeah.

Marcus L: Everything’s rubbish.

Paul Boag: Yeah, yeah.

Marcus L: [inaudible 00:01:15].

Paul Boag: Exactly. Yeah. And you just feel like life is pointless, so miserable and what’s the point of it all. Did I ever tell you the story about how… why I stopped playing World of Warcraft?

Marcus L: I don’t think you did Paul. No, maybe you did and I just sort of dropped off when you said the words World of Warcraft if I can say them.

Paul Boag: Well. Yeah. Understandably. I had an existential crisis because I’ve played World of Warcraft.

Marcus L: Wow.

Paul Boag: I’ve exaggerated for comic effect. So I was really into World of Warcraft. Then one day I was playing it and it was like, well I’m doing all this work, all this grind, killing the same monsters, just again and again, doing the same stuff to enable me to get a new piece of kit that will let me kill some bigger monster in this endless cycle of pointlessness. It’s never done, you never win it. And then I had this moment of going, “Oh, that’s life. The whole of life is this pointless [crosstalk 00:02:18].” When we were talking last week about…

Marcus L: When you get to the point of like when you’ve kind of got enough money and like you don’t need to kind of carry on grasping for more because that will make you unhappier. And I saw a stat this is probably 10 years ago. Maybe be not 10 five to 10 years ago. I saw a stat that said… it was kind of the happiest amount of money you could earn a year.

Paul Boag: [crosstalk 00:02:47] isn’t it 45K? Which is not low, low.

Marcus L: I mean, but it’s not the CEO of a big company, is it?

Paul Boag: Because [crosstalk 00:02:56] 50K.

Marcus L: But the point is, chances are that you’re not going to have a job that kind of is tearing your brain out all the time and you’ve got chance to sort of be yourself and live a bit of a life as well. But you’re not scrambling for cash that everything’s it’s a really tough life. Anyway I’ve got no idea where we’re going with that.

Paul Boag: Should they go? No. No. [crosstalk 00:03:19].

Marcus L: Paul, I’ve managed to give up something similar. I used to play on my iPad and you’re talking about World of Warcraft, utterly pointless things.

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Marcus L: Candy crush. I was addicted to candy crush and I’ve kicked it now and I feel so much, holier than thou.

Paul Boag: Exactly. Yes. These games are terrible, aren’t they? They’re designed to draw you in. It’s the ultimate dark pattern, isn’t it really? Where it kind of… it’s designed to create habits and addictions. It’s terrible really. So as you probably have gathered, this is a fairly laid back season of the podcast. It’s all a virtual meetup. We don’t know what’s going to happen. We don’t know who’s going to arrive and we’re just going to chat to whoever comes along and kind of take it from there. We would encourage you to come and join us for the show and to sign up to be notified when we’re going to record it live so you can actually come to the live thing. You can do that by going to And just come and chill out with us really.

Paul Boag: And to be honest, I totally need that at the moment because [inaudible 00:04:39] feel stressed out up to my eyeballs [crosstalk 00:04:42] with so many different things going on. And ironically this show is one of the reasons I’m stressed out of my eyeballs because I bruised up quite majorly where there’s this not really lovely guy that helps me. So advertising sponsorship for this show and yeah, I kind of messed up a little bit by… he didn’t realize that I was selling and I didn’t realize he was selling. So we’ve actually got too many sponsors for several shows this season. So I apologize to my audience and to the sponsors that some days there’s going to be three sponsors on the show. And I’ve just noticed ironically that one of our sponsors, but not for this episode, but for a future episode is actually in the room at the moment, which is Peldi from Balsamiq. Balsamiq have been a long time sponsor of the show. We ought to… Hello? Could we persuade you to come on air for a minute? Because I’m really interested in what you’re doing. I had the weirdest conversation.

Paul Boag: Let me just invite him onto the show. I had the weirdest conversation with somebody from his team. Invite him on, here we go. Yesterday about the fact that they’re going to be sponsoring later on in the season. And I’ve got to ask about this because it was a strange conversation. The conversation went something like this.

Paul Boag: “So you want them to sponsor some of the episodes?” “Yes.” “Okay, great. How many would you like?” Et cetera, et cetera. “Yeah, but we don’t actually want to promote the product.” “What?” “No, no, no, no. We want to buy…” “So you don’t want advertising slots?” “No, no we do. We do want those slots.”

Paul Boag: Hello. Hi.

Peldi: Hello friends.

Paul Boag: All right, good to have you on.

Marcus L: Hi Peldi.

Peldi: Nice to be on.

Paul Boag: “But we want to promote other people in those slots.” Right. And I was going, “What you want to promote other people? That makes no sense.” And he said, “Yeah, we don’t want to grow too much at the moment. We’re just trying to maintain things.” What’s going on with you guys? Explain to me why you don’t want more customers because this sounds like the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Peldi: Yes, I can see why that would sound that way. So, we’ve sponsored this podcast before for a while. So my assumption is that most of your listeners already know about Balsamiq.

Paul Boag: Yes. [crosstalk 00:07:35].

Peldi: So what we want to do is continue to support your podcast so that you do it more and more because your mission is aligned with our mission. We’re trying to [inaudible 00:07:48] the world of bad software and you’re teaching people about usability and making better apps and websites. So we want to give you money one way or the other, but your audience already knows about Balsamiq. So we thought, why not donate our airtime to some of your listeners who might also like to sponsor you, but they can’t afford to do that yet.

Marcus L: Oh, that’s very cool.

Paul Boag: The coolest thing about that, which the sentence, they want to give me money one way or another. I like that line. Can we have more people that just want to give me money with no effort involved in it. That sounds….

Marcus L: You’ve had enough of that in your life Boag.

Paul Boag: How are things going at Balsamiq these days? It looked like you had a new fancy office from the call I had yesterday.

Peldi: Yes. We do. Things are going very well and it is true that we don’t want to grow too fast. So my goal from the beginning of the company was to stay very small. My dream was to have a one person company and I failed miserably. Now we’re 33.

Paul Boag: Oh crikey. That’s not a one person company.

Peldi: No. I know. But I do really like small companies and I liked for Balsamiq to stay small because we can provide better customer service, you speak with the engineer directly if you have a problem. It’s a small… the culture is very nice and sort of family like and easy to maintain when there’s not too many people. So we had a big growth. We’ve been in business for 11 years now and we grew 12% last year.

Paul Boag: Oh crikey.

Peldi: So that’s a lot. And so if you’re growing a lot, then employees say, well then we can hire a bunch more people. Right. But if you hire more people, that means you have to start having managers and middle managers and you become this big slow monster. So my goal is to grow 2% a year, 3%. Kind of like the Central Bank.

Paul Boag: Yeah. Now that’s really interesting. Have you ever read Paul Jarvis’ book, Company of One.

Peldi: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I was interviewed for it. Yeah.

Paul Boag: Oh, there you go. See, now that’s an amazing book where he talks about exactly this principle that we mentally associate, don’t we? That the growth as being adding more people. But that’s not the only type of growth or the best kind of growth. I mean Headscape is a great example of that. Isn’t it Marcus? That we got up to about 20 people and stopped enjoying it really. Didn’t we?

Marcus L: For quite a few years. It was unpleasant. Whenever we have this conversation… what happened is we started to get HR issues, we started to get personnel issues and we were hiring without maybe putting as much care into those hires as we should have done and we really paid for it. And from about five years ago now, we got back down to a size that was much more pleasant to work at and it’s been, from that point of view, from working as a team point of view, it’s been really, really good ever since. It’s been tougher from a kind of getting business point of view, but you can’t have everything I guess. 10 years ago, there was a lot of business out there to be won. In that sense there’s less. But such is life.

Paul Boag: So what’s the next thing on the horizon for you guys?

Peldi: We just had a major release yesterday actually. After an enormous amount of time, which I’m embarrassed to share, we finally finished our full rewrite of the whole app.

Paul Boag: Oh really? The desktop version.

Peldi: Yep. The desktop app launched yesterday and it’s live and people are downloading it and buying it and it’s awesome and support is very, very quiet. So it was the smoothest release I’ve ever done. I guess we’re getting better at it [crosstalk 00:12:15]. But it’s such a relief… over four years of work to rewrite the whole thing. And now we have a new platform that will really enable us to speed up again with public facing new features and back fixes and stuff that people have been asking for a long time.

Peldi: For a while, since we had these two code basis, we couldn’t really do anything that changed the file format because we would have had to release the old stuff too. And so it was a big handbrake on the company and now it’s released. So where we’re super happy, I encourage everyone to try it out. The new desktop version, it also works with our web app. You can use the desktop app but work on cloud projects. So you have all the collaboration and stuff, but you also have all the power and speed of a native desktop app.

Paul Boag: That’s one of the things that I think is really interesting. The route that you’ve gone. Well everybody else seems to be moving to the cloud based collaborative apps, which are subscription based and everybody’s got subscription fatigue. You’ve maintained that choice between the two that having that choice of being able to just get a desktop app is actually really nice. It’s refreshing.

Peldi: Yeah. For sure, as a customer there are some things that I just want to buy once. But actually up until now, we’ve had this policy that said any update is free. So if you bought Balsamiq in June 2008, you could still download the current version and work with.

Paul Boag: Wow.

Peldi: Right. So we realized that that was not very sustainable and also people… our customers just told us this is ridiculous. They gave you $79, 10 years ago. So now what we do is we charge for major updates.

Paul Boag: That’s fair enough.

Peldi: So we do major updates every five years. Not that bad. And we charge half price for existing customers. So really you’re going to spend $45 to update and then you’re good for another five years.

Paul Boag: Yeah, as long as you don’t do… I know you guys won’t do it because of your company culture. But I use a really good app that I love called ScreenFlow. And I use ScreenFlow-

Peldi: Oh I love it. And they [inaudible 00:14:57] all the time.

Paul Boag: Exactly. It’s a really good app, but they do have major updates. It feels like every five minutes, every major update is a… you pay again.

Peldi: And they nag you with that dialog all the time.

Paul Boag: Yes. It’s that dialogue box. Every time you launch the app it connects to the server to check whether there’s an update. Sees there is an update, so then displays a notification telling you there’s an update. But it’s a paid update and it’s like, “I’m quite happy with the functionality I’ve got.”

Peldi: And they’ve got those patterns where you never know what version you’re running. You don’t know if you need the update or not. Another one that’s just the same is Parallels, the [inaudible 00:15:42].

Paul Boag: Yes.

Peldi: Same thing. I’m like, “Jeez, just let me work.” Every time [inaudible 00:15:48] to you.

Marcus L: I think my version of ScreenFlow is so old it doesn’t do that. So there’s a lesson there.

Paul Boag: Still works fine. Absolutely fine.

Marcus L: I’ve got to find out what version they’re on. [crosstalk 00:16:03].

Paul Boag: I think we’re on version nine now. I’m running version eight. I must admit that last version when I went from seven to eight I simply upgraded to stop the annoying pop up.

Marcus L: Here [crosstalk 00:16:18] go.

Paul Boag: But it’s not that… it’s a very expensive thing just to stop somebody irritating you.

Marcus L: I’m on six Paul and it works fine and I get a no updates.

Paul Boag: See?

Peldi: Does it work with Catalina?

Marcus L: Good question I haven’t updated yet.

Peldi: Well. Duh.

Paul Boag: [crosstalk 00:16:40] as well. Yeah, absolutely. Chris is asking if there’s an alternative and the truth is yes, there’s loads of software that will do similar thing. But actually it’s despite that one little thing, right? It is actually an excellent piece of software.

Marcus L: It is.

Paul Boag: And I use it for everything now. I just use it for… sorry, what was that Marcus?

Marcus L: Their version six it’s super ugly.

Paul Boag: Yeah, yeah. It’s actually not even just the… for screen recording is also really, really good for just video editing if you need a basic video editor. I used to do all of my course material using Final Cut Pro.

Marcus L: Seriously over the top.

Paul Boag: Oh yeah. Actual overkill, and actually it took me far longer to do anything because it was overkill for what I was doing. Oh, well thank you very much for joining us. It’s really good. And I’m sure before too long, this is a kind of teaser of what’s to come for in terms of this show. Because if you’ve got a good product idea, keep listening because soon enough you’ll get to advertise it on Boagworld. Apparently on Balsamiq’s dime, which is great. So thank you very much. And yeah, we’ll talk to you again soon. Bye.

Peldi: Thanks for having me.

Paul Boag: So there we go. That was a nice, pleasant start to the show.

Speaker 4: So how many sponsors have we got this week, Paul?

Paul Boag: We’ve got three. I ought to do one.

Speaker 4: But you did one now, haven’t you?

Paul Boag: Yeah. I did really. I’m going to try and keep them very short and concise. But I do want to talk about sponsors because that’s what makes this show possible. And more importantly, keeps me in clothes and looking as good as I do. Anyway, our first-

Speaker 4: There’s nothing I can say.

Paul Boag: But Marcus, [inaudible 00:18:38]. Our first one is AdSkills. So usually sponsors… this is their copy, right? Usually sponsors want you to buy something. Well, yes, normally they do. But the one we’ve just been talking about does that. But anyway, these guys don’t. They want to offer you a free book. A real physical book as well. None of this ebook rubbish.

Paul Boag: You get a physical book and it’s a really good one. So if you ever doing anything like running Facebook ads, then you already know all the complexity that goes with running Facebook ads. From identifying your audiences, to retargeting and phrases to be honest, I don’t fully understand because I don’t do a lot in this area. So I really ought to get hold of this book. Well the sponsor today, which is, which was founded by Justin Brooks, has brought out a book which has got seven retargeting recipes inside. So it’s really invaluable if you’re doing this kind of advertising. These recipes are a step-by-step app campaigns that you can run that are proven to work. If you haven’t heard of AdSkills yet, then that’s quite surprising actually is they’ve got over 11,000 customers. Basically they’re providing paid traffic training, so they’re teaching you how to do this kind of paid traffic advertising.

Paul Boag: They’ve printed a thousand copies of the book that they would love to give away to you guys listening to this. The only catch is that the mailman doesn’t work for free. So there will be a small shipping charge. But to be honest it’s worth it to have something to teach you how to do this kind of thing. I was on a call with one of my mentorship clients early this morning, and he was asking about pay per click advertising and I was having to go, “I don’t really know.” But get this book. So if you go now to, you can get your copy of the book and also find out about all the different training they do as well. So that’s

Paul Boag: Okay, so that’s that. Where are we going next, Marcus? What should we talk about now?

Marcus L: I don’t know. Apparently, this is the thing that version six of any software is often the best.

Paul Boag: Really?

Marcus L: A well known thing according to Peldi he says… we used to joke about it when I was back at [inaudible 00:21:09] stop when you get to version six. Don’t pay for anymore updates [crosstalk 00:21:16].

Paul Boag: I’ve got say version CS6 of the Adobe suite was very good. That is true.

Marcus L: Somebody has commented that. Yeah, Dave says that.

Paul Boag: But Chris has pointed out it wasn’t version six of Windows, Windows Vista, which was a train wreck. So I’m not so sure that I believe this. It’s a bit like every other Star Trek film is good. It’s not. I’m not sure that’s actually correct either. There’s always the exception that proves the rule. Yes. That’s very true. So what’s been… go on Marcus.

Marcus L: Sorry Paul. I was just going to say what have I been doing? I was deciding this has nothing to do with the web or the internet or anything like that. But it’s to do with… because you mentioned the Star Wars films and I was about to say something really quite crass about, they’re all rubbish. But I can remember when I was 10 years old and seeing the first one in the cinema and my mind was blown.

Paul Boag: By the way I was talking about the Star Trek films. But I’ll forgive you.

Marcus L: You said Star Wars and I can prove that because I’ve got it on recording.

Paul Boag: No, I meant Star Trek.

Marcus L: You did meet at every other Star Trek. Well, yes, that’s true. I didn’t know that one anyway. But anyway, I heard Star Wars and reacted to Star Wars anyway. Yeah. Dangerous, don’t go back and watch films again that you think are really good.

Paul Boag: Oh yeah.

Marcus L: There’s a new Guy Ritchie’s gangster film out and called The Gentleman. I thought why.but that’s going to see that. And then I noticed that Snatch was on Netflix. So I watched Snatch thinking, this is one of the best films ever made. No it isn’t. It’s a bit wooden and a bit slow and oh yeah. You said Star Trek, did he? Okay. Well it just proves the-

Paul Boag: In your face, Marcus.

Marcus L: I’m going to have to check that now, right? 23 minutes.

Paul Boag: Anybody else for coming on and telling us what they’ve been up to for the last few days and what they’d been working on. I did… while people are volunteering to do that, I did an interesting thing yesterday. It was a bit for the spur of the moment thing. I was doing some wire framing so I decided to stream my wireframing live. That was a horrible mistake. You realize when you’ve got other people watching you when you work, you realize quite how boring and incompetent you are. I completely forgot how to use sketch. It was a ridiculous episode.

Marcus L: That’s quite funny Paul. Because I thought blimey that’s quite… because I saw you advertise it on the channel. I thought, “Do I want to watch that in the hook? No.” And then I thought, “That’s really quite a brave thing to do.” Especially just like that. Is there a recording though says [crosstalk 00:24:08].

Paul Boag: There is. I don’t know whether I want to give out the URL for that. Peldi makes a good point. He said… because I was, I got quite frustrated with sketch because it was proving far too complicated. If only there was a tool focus slowly on wireframing. Should have probably used Balsamiq for it. But I am a bit frustrated with sketch. I mean it’s a great tool, but he’s right. It’s not ideal for wireframing because it’s a little over engineered.

Paul Boag: So yes, I paid for that, but the client was pleased, which was good. That’s the main thing. At the end of the day, if the client is [crosstalk 00:24:50].

Marcus L: Indeed.

Paul Boag: So Michelle, are you offering to come onto the show with your… oh no, no. You’re just saying hello. Everybody’s very shy today and doesn’t want to come on.

Marcus L: Oh come on. Just come on [crosstalk 00:25:00].

Paul Boag: Should I pick on someone?

Marcus L: No, no wait, wait for someone like Paul Edwards to volunteer. Paul. There you go.

Paul Boag: I knew. Yeah, I knew he would [inaudible 00:25:11]. Let’s get Paul on. Because I what have you been up to Marcus? What have you been doing the last week or so?

Marcus L: Well actually, because I’d had something prepared for last week, which was basically writing lots of case studies. I spent December writing a lot of case studies. But they’re kind of done now apart from one that I really… this is the point of like I’ve got one to do and this I can’t. I wrote about seven because I was a bit naughty. I left them hanging, I should’ve done them as the projects were finished but I ended up writing them over Christmas. And then I was thinking about what’s interesting things related to doing case studies. Because I always think even now though, I’ve probably written 100 in my life, but they’re just little half an hour jobs that you can just kind of knock out. But they’re not.

Paul Boag: Oh no, no. The other thing that I always struggled with, do you think anybody actually reads case studies?

Marcus L: Well this is the thing. Because I thought, “So what do you do? What should you do when you’re thinking about a case study?” And I think obviously the first thing we should do is try and get into the head of standard UX staff. Get into the head of the user. What does the user of the Headscape site want to see or know? And I don’t know is the honest answer. And I don’t know if you’ve got… “Am I ever going to get an honest answer from a client?” I suppose I might. But there’s kind of two sides to it. I think my head says, or maybe it’s my heart. Maybe my heart says, “They want a logical nicely step through story with a bit of background, what were the challenges and how we assess those challenges and overcame them and blah blah blah.”

Marcus L: But my heart and my head, whichever the opposite one is says, “Actually people just want to say a few pretty pictures and maybe a soundbite or two.” So therefore I think you need a bit of both of that. You need to put the detail, but you need to be able to… people just to go, “Oh, they work with Nestle or they work with a charity that’s similar to ours and oh it looks pretty good.” Move on.

Paul Boag: Yeah, so I would agree. I think there’s different people and different ways. There are some people and I would fall into this category, that just want to have a glance. Oh yeah. They work with the right kind of clients. Their work looks decent. I’ll give them a ring. While there are other people that are very reluctant to make contact until they’re pretty sure so they need more detail online.

Paul Boag: I just think they’re boring. Most case studies are boring.

Marcus L: So therefore have lots of pretty pictures.

Paul Boag: Yeah.

Marcus L: One thing we’ve tried to do, which I haven’t done much lately in the past is if we’ve done a kind of tech heavy project or a project that’s got lots of cool functionality is to make little videos or even get gifts of showing these things working rather than just a screenshot. That makes it a bit more interesting. I think testimonials are really important sometimes… And that’s not a flat across the board statement about every company or organization that you’ve ever worked with. Because I’ve worked with some charities and where actually the testimonials have been worthless. Because you interview people and nobody believes what they’re reading. But I think for somebody like us, I think they’re really important. And I also think that if you can get… and this is a really hard thing to do and we haven’t managed it, but I’m quite pushy with asking for testimonials.

Marcus L: Because I think the more you’ve got, the more across the board they are, then the more likely people are going to take them on board and believe them.

Paul Boag: So testimonials are really quite important actually. I put in quite a lot of effort by creating testimonials. I started hassling people as well for video testimonials where they jump on a webcam and say something. Because I just don’t believe a lot of written testimonials on websites. I’m sorry. I’m just cynical and old maybe, I don’t know. Anyway, we’ve got Paul on the show now. Hello Paul?

Paul Edwards: Hello Paul. Hello, Marcus. Hello [inaudible 00:29:35]. I’m very good. Thank you. I’m just sitting up the end of the garden in my glorious wooden palace.

Paul Boag: Yes, it looks very… you’ve got a very posh office. I have to say with… I don’t know whether I’d want to be sitting in that. Aren’t you cold?

Paul Edwards: No. No. I’ve got air conditioning and stuff. What you didn’t see was just prior to the [inaudible 00:30:01] cleaning the whiteboard and then shoving everything over there.

Paul Boag: Oh, that’s brilliant. So what you’d been working on at the minute, Paul? Anything interesting?

Paul Edwards: To be honest, at this point of the year, I’m in an unusual point where I’m largely building my contracts for the rest of the coming year. So most of this month so far has been out seeing both existing clients and doing reviews of the last year. What worked well. There’s opportunities to develop over this year so I can sort of better align my services with them. I had a meeting yesterday and been in meetings with an existing client again today, which I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. It’s been a really good day so far and I made it here for the podcast. So [inaudible 00:30:48].

Paul Boag: So what kind of work are you doing?

Paul Edwards: Yeah. That’s always the difficult question. As you know, I’m a bit of a Jack of all trades, so I work on companies websites, but also a bit of pre-project sort of consultancy and sort of digital asset auditing and strategy around essentially making sure enough work is done front end before the project to ensure the client isn’t just frittering their money away essentially. So just trying to keep things on track. Today again, has been reviewing existing sort of digital assets for one of my longstanding clients and getting to meet a whole new team there. So that’s why it’s been so much fun today. Not only is it a lovely place to go to, it’s a beautiful place in Sussex, but they’ve had a large staff change. So I’ve sat down and had a meeting with all of these new staff today and it’s just been really nice seeing what skill sets people have and how that’s changed and how we can just have a more effective relationship over the coming year.

Paul Boag: So it sounds like you do quite a lot of ongoing work with clients rather than a series of big redesign. Is that fair?

Paul Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. I’d say about half of all of my income comes from ongoing relationships, ongoing management of assets and a lot of troubleshooting and maintenance. So about half of my income is from there and the rest of it is built up with the larger projects, sort of stag it out through the year really. That’s where the savings come from.

Paul Boag: Yeah, that’s always something that I don’t have a lot of… I worked with clients for a short length of time and then they kind of take things back in house and carry on inside. I’m kind of a little bit envious of that because I don’t get that longterm relationship.

Paul Edwards: Yeah. I really enjoy it and I always think to be able to help client best and do my job well, I have to learn so much about them and on what their goals and passions are and what really makes their business tick. Having these long relationships make such a difference and often find a year into a relationship, you really realize that everything you were told a year ago, it just doesn’t really apply. And it’s a completely different ball game to what you thought it was. The client’s goals aren’t what they said they were, the customers aren’t who you thought they were. So you can learn so much more. And I’d say a lot of my clients I’ve probably had [inaudible 00:33:24] excess of a decade.

Paul Boag: Wow.

Paul Edwards: I have really long client relationships and a very low sort of turnover, but I don’t keep as many clients. So I’ve probably got about… yeah. Go on.

Paul Boag: No, no, no. I was just going to ask. So what that means in practice? Are they on retainers with you or is it a series of projects? How does it work?

Paul Edwards: It’s a blend of all of those things to put in this video. I have a small number of retainers. Probably 50% of our monthly agreements, but I wouldn’t really call them retainers, but I guess they’re like micro retainers, I suppose you could call them. And then the remainder is the larger contracts and they’re not necessarily exclusive to a client. A client might approach me and use me in several ways. Sort of retain our ad hoc and project. It really does vary massively.

Paul Boag: Marcus where is Headscape at with that kind of stuff because you’re mainly… one of reoccurring projects with clients aren’t you? You don’t have that many kind of retainer type stuff going on.

Marcus L: Well surprisingly, we do because it depends entirely on whether we’ve done the back end of a project. If we’ve done the project from the ground up. So we’ve done all of it basically back end, front end and consulting the whole lot. Then we tend to have an ongoing relationship. We tend not to have… retainer is a bit too strong. We’ll basically have a support agreement in place where people will have a time bank of credits that they can spend as they wish. [crosstalk 00:35:02]. They buy some more or they don’t.

Paul Boag: But that’s pretty rare.

Marcus L: Yeah. So obviously over the years the more projects you do that involve some kind of technical work, then the more support you have to keep providing. It’s actually quite a hard balance because they’re great projects to get up front because they’re normally the really big number ones. But then… and also it’s all [whoopie 00:35:27], and we can charge people for support ongoing. But you’ve got to deliver on that score. We’ve had some really quite… I’m going to go interesting challenges to face this year with a couple of our American clients related to security, which were quite early at the time.

Paul Boag: Right.

Marcus L: Which obviously if you’ve just done the front end and handed over to someone else, which is at that problem. It’s just designed, we’re just looking at the user experience. We’re not having to build the bloody thing. Then you can earn a lot more from it, but there’s a lot more responsibility and yeah, there’s a fair bit of that. And some of them sometimes it’s nice to just kind of go in and be the shining star for a while and bring new loveliness and then go away.

Paul Boag: That’s what I do. I’ve got no staying power whatsoever with a client. So when it gets into the details, I run away. So Paul, I was going to ask you about that. How do you… oh, it’s gone out of my head now. It’s always the way, isn’t it? Yeah, I know. Are you proactive with clients? Are you effectively going back to them with suggestions or is it mainly passive that they’re coming back to you with stuff that they want to do?

Paul Edwards: No, it’s a really important part of what I do to be proactive. So as, and when I notice things I will run them up the flagpole. God knows what I thought that phrase but I’ll highlight those and I’ll give proposal documents of things where I think there’s opportunity that we can all sort of seize. And the low hanging fruit as well because so many clients are interested on the quick and the cheap sort of changes they can make to our project. And just as long as it’s built on a decent foundation, I don’t mind doing that.

Paul Edwards: But a large number of my clients come to me with a site already made. It may already be reaching end of life in my book and you know how it can be. There’s such a variety of conditions a site can come to you. And that generates a job list which a client might look at for the next year or so. So you can have quite a lot of knock on work from that. And being a Jack of all trades, I tend to get involved in most of those parts of the work, I don’t sub a lot of work out, which is why the Slack channels are godsend. Because there’s so many things where I just go “What’s that?”

Paul Boag: How did you do that? Yeah.

Paul Edwards: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But yeah, the life of a freelancer, you just can’t know everything.

Paul Boag: Okay, so it sounds like you’ve been freelancing for quite a long time then.

Paul Edwards: November 5th 2005.

Paul Boag: Wow, that’s good.

Marcus L: I can’t believe we were still basking in the glory of our retaining the ashes or regaining the ashes then.

Paul Boag: I thought you were going to say basking in the glory of starting this podcast, which happened in 2005 as well. I wonder when it actually was.

Marcus L: So it was really that long?

Paul Boag: Yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:38:40].

Paul Edwards: 15th birthday must be coming up.

Paul Boag: It must be. Yeah.

Marcus L: Headscape is 13 today.

Paul Boag: Really? Wow. Yes, it’s today, isn’t it?

Marcus L: We can go out drinking.

Paul Boag: Oh, I’m seeing you tomorrow so we can celebrate. So Paul, where does your work come from? Is it mainly referrals and word of mouth or are you more proactive than that?

Paul Edwards: Yeah, that’s always an interesting one because I’m always in a little bit of doubt over it to be honest with you. Because it seems to fluctuate and a vast majority of my work is word of mouth. I also do a certain amount of local profile building with online networking through Twitter and hashtag [inaudible 00:39:30], although that’s very much in decline for me in terms of use. For a few years I was actually getting about 50% of my turnover from Twitter. So yeah. But that has just nosedived probably in the last year and a half. So yeah, I’m looking for new avenues for picking at work at the moment. But as I said, because I have so many really long client relationships.

Paul Edwards: My work is not really vulnerable. I don’t have the things… Marcus as you were saying, where it’s sort of more project based and smaller lengths of time. I don’t have those upcoming periods of not having projects in. So yeah, I’m not quite so vulnerable, but I don’t have the turnover that you would as an agency.

Paul Boag: Swings in roundabouts [crosstalk 00:40:23].

Paul Edwards: Exactly. Yeah.

Paul Boag: So it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because I can’t imagine being in a situation where I wasn’t facing a cliff. I always face that drop off point about six weeks to three months ahead where it’s like, I’ve no idea what I’ve got coming up. But you sound like you don’t have that as much.

Marcus L: That’s quite interesting, Paul. Sorry, of course we go way back. But we are the same, but we’re not… because of what I was just saying earlier about having more support agreements, more clients we have to look after. It’s actually the cliff is further away for us now because you’re just continually topping up these time banks with people, which is not enough to run the company on. But that doesn’t mean… it’s just a bit further away.

Paul Boag: Yeah. And that’s where… You’re in that situation Paul, [inaudible 00:41:16].

Paul Edwards: My goal originally when I started taking on maintenance agreements was to ensure that I covered all my base costs and cost of living just from my maintenance agreements. So as a freelance that just meant I wasn’t constantly living on edge and I’m worried about losing the house. So my day to day bills are all paid off of maintenance work and then the projects that I pick up do all of the extra things and allow me to make further investment and changes to what I do. It works pretty well, but could always have more.

Paul Boag: It’s a very interesting way to live isn’t it? Because I haven’t got… when I started this month I didn’t have enough work to keep me going to the end of the month. I wasn’t going to break even for this month. And next month, at the moment, I’ve not got enough work in. But the way that I offset that is I have a big war chest behind me in the company so that I know if I do have a down month, it’s not the end of the world. But it’s a weird… it’s the biggest challenge I think about going off on your own is that uncertainty that comes with it.

Paul Edwards: It is. And it’s such a personal thing as well because where that cliff edge is, is so different for everyone and the stresses that they can cope with are so different. And for me the panic point might be a completely different point to you. It’s taken a long time, but I’ve got to the point where I’ve been doing this long enough to know it will work out. And to just calm down. It will work out. And it always does. It always does.

Paul Boag: Because I think that’s a bit of a big challenge that you and Chris face, Marcus. That you’re actually very different about that panic point, aren’t you? Chris is an inherent [crosstalk 00:43:15]. He is much better though and we see.

Marcus L: It’s because we’ve had a couple of years of it being a bit… it’s been all right, but it’s not been great, just a little like getting by. I think that’s describe it. We’ve got some good clients, but then we’ve also gone for things that I thought we’d win that we didn’t, blah, blah, blah. Kind of ends up to, it being okay. And I think the same kind of level of okayness would have probably made Chris panic more five, 10 years ago than it does now. He’s just learning to accept it. You’ll hear about all of this tomorrow, Paul. No doubt.

Paul Boag: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Paul, thank you very much for joining us. I’m going to throw you off simply because we’ve got another sponsor to do.

Paul Edwards: It’s been a pleasure. [crosstalk 00:43:58].

Paul Boag: Yeah. Lovely to chat to you and yeah, we might talk to you again in a few weeks time.

Paul Edwards: Thanks very much. I should continue to hassle you from the chat room.

Paul Boag: Excellent. That’s what I like to hear.

Paul Boag: So, yes, let’s talk about our next sponsor. Really interesting actually in the conversations that we’ve been having about running your own agency, running your own business, which really is become the theme of this show. Who knew that a theme would emerge? And one of the big challenges for a lot of people is recruitment these days. I’m mentoring a lot of different organizations at the moment, all of which seem to be recruiting in different areas and it’s an enormous challenge and the one place that increasingly is becoming an area to pay attention to with that kind of thing is LinkedIn. And I’m seeing LinkedIn just skyrocket in all kinds of areas. It’s very much picked up on the role that the Twitter used to have in terms of winning work. We work via LinkedIn these days, just like Paul was talking about winning it from Twitter in the past and pull that. So probably would be a good piece.

Paul Boag: Place to look now is LinkedIn. But also LinkedIn is excellent for recruitment. And a lot of organizations that I’m mentoring are using it as a recruitment tool. So we all know how incredibly difficult it is to hire digital professionals and what nightmare it is. And LinkedIn is really good because it’s so targeted. You could be so specific about the kinds of people that you’re looking for. So you can say you’re not just looking for say the hard skills, can you sketch… which apparently after yesterday’s wireframing exercise I can’t. But you can also look for soft skills too and an experience in those kinds of areas. So it’s become such a big tool at the moment that basically a person is hired, the stats that they gave me is hired every eight seconds via LinkedIn, which is just a stunning number of people being hired via it.

Paul Boag: So it’s a great place to look for people. And LinkedIn jobs is now the number one hiring platform for developing and getting quality hires, which is just stunning. So yeah, LinkedIn is really interesting at the moment and finding the right person or you can find the right person that you need for your business today with LinkedIn jobs. You can pay what you want… you can spend as much as you want on recruiting via it. But actually they’ll give you the first $50 off. And actually it’s entirely possible to find a good person for that free $50 visit to get that $50 off of your advertising. So that’s again, that’s to get $50 off of your first post… job posting there. And then terms and conditions apply, see site for details, et cetera.

Paul Boag: So there you go, that’s LinkedIn jobs. So thank you very much for sponsoring the show. Well what are we going to talk about in our last 10 minutes or so of the show? I would like to talk about some of the cool apps, people have been finding recently. There’s some really good apps out there. I’m becoming obsessed, right? If anybody has found a really good app recently, pop it into the chat, but there is a couple that I wanted to mention that I’ve become a huge fan of recently. The first one that I’ve discovered is something called User Drive. It says okay.

Paul Boag: Now the reason I wanted to mention this app is because up until now, whenever I did like card sorting exercises online, obviously card sorting in person is absolute great and I love doing it. But oftentimes I have to do it online and the only tool that was there available to do that was either a tool that wasn’t really suited for card sorting, but you could kind of get to work to do card sorting or OptimalSort, which I despise OptimalSort. It’s a horrible interface. This is where I discover that they’re going to be a sponsor later [crosstalk 00:48:38].

Marcus L: On the next show. Yes. We made our own.

Paul Boag: Yeah. Did you really?

Marcus L: Lee made his own.

Paul Boag: Right. That’s really interesting. [crosstalk 00:48:48].

Marcus L: Go get him on to talk about it sometime. I told him to come around this afternoon. But of course they’re busy doing work.

Paul Boag: Just madness isn’t it? Yeah, I would like to get them on the show but User Drive, it’s really good. They’re not paying us as a sponsor or anything like that, but it’s a relatively new thing and I’ve been following them kind of through from beta. And they’ve got some really great features and most of all it’s a really good user experience for, A, for you using the app, but B, the people that are involved in taking or doing the card sorting exercises and it’s just really clean and nice.

Paul Boag: You might want to check that out. Someone else’s recommended… Davis mentioned Get Station. Let me look at… oh I know Get Station. Yes. It’s the one app to rule them all. Which all of these web based apps that we end up using, flipping tons of them these days. It’s something that allows you to bring them all together into a single interface. So, for example, you can bring in Gmail and Dropbox and everything else into one one app, which is quite nice. Because you can do things like smart docking where you can instead of having loads of tabs open, you can have almost like a desktop of applications and you’ve got control over your notifications and there’s a unified search in it and all kinds of stuff. I seen it before but I’ve never… yes that’s why I stopped using it Dave.

Paul Boag: The only downside to it, is it’s quite a big memory hog. So it can be a bit of a beast to run, which is not surprising considering it’s trying to run have many different web applications all at the same time, which are all also notoriously badly optimized in my experience. But there you go. But yeah, it might be something you want to check out. That’s a good suggestion Dave. Thank you. So another silly little thing that I wanted to recommend. I don’t know whether you know, but I’m just finished the second draft of my upcoming book, which is called Click. And it’s about encouraging people to take action without resulting to dark patterns. And when I was doing some research for that, obviously a lot of what that book is about is things like cognitive bias, mental models, how we think as people, how we make decisions, that kind of stuff.

Paul Boag: So while I was researching, I came across this silly little app that’s actually really good. It’s a Chrome extension and it’s called Brainy Tab. Right. And it’s really nice because every time you open a new tab in Chrome it tells you a little kind of thing about human psychology or dark patterns or cognitive biases and stuff like that. And it’s a kind of really nice way of having that stuff learning subliminally I guess. Where it just keeps popping up these different things. Actually, there’s another app that I use that’s very similar to that as well that idea of regurgitating. It’s subliminal learning and it’s called Readwise. I’ve just suddenly thought of that. I forgot about Readwise. Now what Readwise is, I don’t know about you but I book… when I read a book I highlight bits from it.

Paul Boag: “Oh, that’s a really interesting quote.” And I do it with articles as well, I highlight that. “Oh, that’s a really interesting quote.” And then never look at them again.

Marcus L: Yes.

Paul Boag: And you think, “Why the hell did I bother doing that?”

Marcus L: I stopped doing it for those exact reasons.

Paul Boag: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Marcus L: So I stopped taking a zillion photographs and never look at them, but you know.

Paul Boag: Yeah. Yeah. So with Readwise, what it does is they’ve just released an iOS app, which makes it a lot better. They used to send it as an email to you. It will just periodically show you a different thing that you highlighted in the past, which is really good. Well, a great little idea. And so oftentimes, again, when I was writing the book, I happened to get through one of their emails. That reminded me of something I’d read in another book that I’ve been able to include in my book.

Marcus L: Really good. That’s cool.

Paul Boag: So yeah, I just… I thought I’d share some apps. What’s Michelle just shared? Echo health app.

Marcus L: Healthcare app. It’s for repeat prescriptions. [crosstalk 00:53:44].

Paul Boag: Oh, okay. So do you get it… does it come to send stuff straight to you or what does it do?I love a well designed app.

Marcus L: I think it just enables you to go through the process of reordering, doing repeat prescription painlessly, no pun intended.

Paul Boag: Oh, it’s actually an NHS… appears on the NHS website. Now that’s good. I love a really well designed, well thought through apps. It’s like porn to me. I’ve reached the age where that’s the kind of thing I get excited about.

Marcus L: I was going to say porn really was your thing before. But now-

Paul Boag: Now I have moved on. I love a really well designed interface anyway, so…

Marcus L: That’s cool.

Paul Boag: Anybody else fancy coming on the show or should we… well, people are considering if they want to volunteer for this [inaudible 00:54:44]. There’s been some pretty poor excuses for not coming on this week. What was it? Lewis said that he hasn’t shaved. Right. Look at me. Can you see me Lewis? Do I look like I’ve shaved?

Marcus L: Me neither.

Paul Boag: And Michelle says, “Oh, I’ve got nothing to say.” Well that’s never stopped me doing a podcast for 10 years.

Marcus L: So we’re nearly done anyway, aren’t we?

Paul Boag: All right. I’ll do our final sponsor and then we’ll wrap up. Okay. Third sponsor for the day is Frontify. Frontify have been an amazing support for the show for so long. Just to remind you what these guys do. They’re an all in one brand management platform. So they’ve got like a brand portal, they’ve got digital asset management, design systems, your web and your print publishing. All of that kind of stuff. All nicely kept together. And I kind of ran that down in a bit more detail last week but one of the features I want to concentrate on this week is their design system. They have an absolutely amazing way of supporting design systems. So if your organization is thinking about creating a design system or has created a design system and it’s all a bit ad hoc and not managed very well, then you should check out Frontify. So it’s got a proper design workflow built into it, really great for collaboration.

Paul Boag: It will massively reduce the time to get your design system up and running. And of course once you’ve got a design system you could get to market much quicker with your redesigned projects, et cetera. It integrates with sketch the application that I’m really good at using apparently. And it scales all the way up to supporting design systems that are being rolled out across global teams. So that wherever you are [inaudible 00:56:46] really good for remote teams to be able to have your design system available to everybody online. And it even offers a free package for startups and freelances to get you going. So to find out more about Frontify, go to front There we go. Look, Michelle has just volunteered to say hi.

Marcus L: Just say hi. Come on we-

Paul Boag: We’ll get Michelle on enough to say hello and then we’ll get her on proper next week. Because I want to prove that you don’t need to have something to say to come to a meetup. Because if we’re trying to create a meetup type environment, we don’t always have to have a proper thing to say.

Marcus L: I don’t go to the pub and have a story to tell.

Paul Boag: No, exactly.

Marcus L: Exactly.

Paul Boag: You should just come in. I don’t think… have we ever spoken face to face Michelle?

Marcus L: Drinking guys excellent idea.

Paul Boag: Oh. Marcus is always suggesting drinking.

Marcus L: Actually next Thursday I’ve got a couple of my mates coming over basically for a pub [inaudible 00:57:44]. And they kick start. Hey!

Paul Boag: It’s Michelle. Hello.

Michelle: Hi. Pretty face for a name.

Paul Boag: Exactly.

Marcus L: Yes.

Paul Boag: Everyday I talk to you in the Slack channel and I’ve never actually seen or heard you. You’re not some phantom. You’re a real person.

Michelle: I am. I’m afraid so yes.

Paul Boag: Where do you work, Michelle?

Michelle: So I work at Good Energy, which is a green energy company, which keeps me busy, keeps me on my toes where I’m within an internal team there. So we’re a team of two. Very small, getting a whole lot of user experience done in an industry that hasn’t really historically had a lot.

Paul Boag: Yeah. You’re not kidding. I once got approached by Ecotricity.

Michelle: That was probably me.

Paul Boag: Is that you?

Michelle: Yeah.

Paul Boag: That’s where we spoke. And now you’ve moved on to somewhere else.

Michelle: To somewhere else. Yeah.

Paul Boag: I saw you… when you popped up on the screen then, I said, “Well, she looks familiar.” And then [crosstalk 00:58:56] “It must’ve been the avatar that I saw.” But [inaudible 00:59:02] avatar every day. But now that’s where it was. Yes. Shame that never went anywhere that-

Michelle: I know. It didn’t.

Paul Boag: Sorry about that.

Michelle: Yeah. I mean it would have been really good and I really did appreciate the time and the care that you put into looking our journey then. As we can all appreciate sometimes organizations aren’t ready for what [crosstalk 00:59:22].

Paul Boag: No. Is this new company better that you feel more appreciated there, do you?

Michelle: Certainly. It’s different. They are different. There’s different [inaudible 00:59:34] that go on. But they’re definitely more… companies say that they’re customer centric and they’re user focused. But then when it actually comes down to it. It’s really nice to work for an organization that’s got a rich history of research and use it for its design. So it’s kind of there’s not as much kind of pushing how things go on, but there’s still challenges.

Marcus L: Of course. I need to [inaudible 00:59:57] that or a year, 18 months ago, something like that. And their experience was pretty good. I felt like they were professionals behind my experience guiding me through it. Because then they are no doubt competitors you can point to… they’re doing it well.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly.

Paul Boag: I mean that’s the interesting thing about energy supplies, is that because traditionally it used to be so hard to swap energy suppliers, there wasn’t the same needs to provide a good customer experience then there is today. Now it’s so simple to swap between energy suppliers. So Ecotricity is an example of that. And I don’t mean to bad mouth your previous employers, but I actually switched to them, didn’t I?

Michelle: Yes. I remember you said [crosstalk 01:00:46].

Paul Boag: And actually it turned out to be a bit of a nightmare.

Michelle: Oh dear! [crosstalk 01:00:50].

Paul Boag: So I was with this with them… It’s not your fault. [crosstalk 01:00:54].

Marcus L: It’s your [crosstalk 01:00:54] fault.

Michelle: [inaudible 01:00:54] what can I say.

Paul Boag: Actually the interface stuff was fine. It was the broader user experience and all of that kind of stuff where it started to be problematic. So after about six months I felt was screwed them then, and I swapped again. And the fact that you can do that so easily these days, means that user experience is inevitably going to go up there [crosstalk 01:01:22] the priority.

Michelle: You’ve always been able to switch energy companies relatively easily, but unfortunately there’s a lot of misconceptions, especially when you go into the research side of this. People have a lot of worries and concerns around switching energy companies and losing their supply. For example [crosstalk 01:01:39] concern thinking they’re going to go like four days without any energy at all. We’re kind of in that, we guide you through the process. You’re not going to lose your electricity or your gas. [crosstalk 01:01:50] sorry.

Paul Boag: No, no. You carry on.

Michelle: I’ve forgotten my trail of thought. [crosstalk 01:01:59].

Paul Boag: That’s all right.

Michelle: I do remember our conversation and it was lovely and I was really dead excited about it. It just didn’t quite work out unfortunately. [inaudible 01:02:07].

Paul Boag: You have no idea how many conversations I have like that. To honest, by the nature of the kind of stuff that I do, because I’m involved very, very early in the journey a lot of the time. So a lot of my work is around creating organizational change, instigating that kind of culture. And a company needs to be aware enough of their needs to pay me, but not so aware they don’t need me. So there’s this window of time and of course a lot of times then people come to me and they discover, oh well I thought I’d be able to get this, over the line, but I’m not able to. So it’s a very common scenario. And it can be quite demoralizing if you work in house. You’re banging your head against the brick wall the whole time. And I suspect that’s what caused you to move in the end, was it not?

Michelle: Yeah. Well we don’t need to go into the detail. [crosstalk 01:03:07]. When we’ve got more time. I’d really like to talk to you about… I’ve got some interesting challenges I’d like to put it to the whole group really because I’ve set myself the challenge of trying to be a zero waste [inaudible 01:03:22] this year. If that makes any sense. So the whole idea of trying to move away from paper, think about how things are hosted, how you run your meetings, how you travel to workshops, [crosstalk 01:03:32].

Paul Boag: We’ve [inaudible 01:03:34] to talk about that. Could we get you on the… are you going to be around next month?

Michelle: [crosstalk 01:03:38]. Yeah. If I’m [crosstalk 01:03:41].

Paul Boag: Let’s get you on. Because that, that is a really good podcast in that. The chat rooms getting in [crosstalk 01:03:46]. So yeah, we’d love to do that. Let’s talk about that next time. So let’s stop at that point because I want to come back to that and that is a really good conversation Michelle. So yeah, let’s catch up next time. And presuming you’re around, if not next time, the time after. Whenever you’re next in, we’ll get you on and we’ll talk about that. But till then, thank you very much and it’s lovely to see you again.

Michelle: No problem. Okay. Yeah.

Paul Boag: Bye.

Michelle: Bye.

Paul Boag: Wow, that’s it. I’m glad we squeezed Michelle in at the end of the show there because that is going to be an excellent topic for next time. I’m looking forward to that.

Marcus L: How on earth do you do UX without posters? Chris says in the chat room.

Paul Boag: [crosstalk 01:04:29].

Marcus L: I’m going to try and do a joke from somebody that’s been on the show. This is going to last two episodes, isn’t it? So I’ve got one from Paul Edwards. This is actually a Ronnie Corbett joke. Bless him. A ship carrying red paint has collided with a ship carrying purple paint in the English channel. Both crews are marooned.

Paul Boag: That is terrible.

Marcus L: No, it’s not. It’s wonderful. It’s Ronnie Corbett and it’s class, is what it is.

Paul Boag: It’s class. It’s from a bygone era. I miss those days.

Marcus L: See there you go class.

Paul Boag: Exactly. All right. Well thank you very much apparently for that joke. As I say, apparently. But they go and thank you very much for joining us in the room. Actually I’m really enjoying this season of the podcast and just not knowing how things are going to go. Had a really good thing come out of today’s show, which was brilliant. If you would like to know… if you’re listening to this and you wish you were experiencing it live, then you can get notified on the day when we’re going to be recording it so you know what’s coming up. Just go to and we can let you know when it’s going to be recorded. You can come along and chill out with us. In the meantime, feel free to come join us in the Slack channel. We’ve already heard several talks about how people enjoy the Slack channel at And next week, Lewis might even have shaved, who know! But until then, thanks for listening and good bye.